Which 45-70 lever action?

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CraigC, Just a dumb question, but I have a 26" barrel rifle and it does have a saddle ring. It has an end cap on the forearm, and no barrel band. I've always thought of it as a rifle, but would it be called a carbine due to it's butt plate and saddle ring?

Not CraidC but I can answer that question. If it has an end cap on the fore end and no barrel band, it is a rifle.


During the 19th Century, Winchester offered their rifles in three different configurations; rifle, carbine, and musket.


Typically, a rifle had a cap on the end of the fore end, and the magazine was hung from a single hanger dovetailed into the bottom of the barrel. Rifles usually had a cast crescent shaped butt plate. Winchester would supply a rifle in almost any barrel length desired, barrel length was not what defined the difference between a carbine and a rifle. Barrels could be round, octagonal, or half round half octagon. I have seen Winchester rifles with 16" barrels built in the rifle configuration.



This is a photo of a typical Model 1892 rifle. Notice the configuration of the butt plate, the cap on the end of the for end, and the method of supporting the magazine.


Winchester1892Rifle.jpg



Carbines did not use a dovetailed magazine hanger, the magazine was supported by barrel bands, typically two. The front sight may have been dovetailed directly into the barrel, or it may have been integral with the front barrel band. There was no end cap on the fore end. The butt plate was a strap of heavy sheet metal bent to shape, generally less severly scooped than a crescent shaped butt plate. There was a slight flat at the comb of the stock. Carbine barrels had a relatively severe taper from the receiver to the muzzle. A saddle ring might or might not be present on a carbine. It was not a defining feature of a carbine, only a defining feature of a Saddle Ring Caribine.


This is a typical Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine. (The ring is on the other side.) Notice the barrel bands, and the lack of an end cap on the fore end.

92carbine.jpg

The Musket configuration was like an overgrown carbine. Do not be confused by the 18th Century use of the work musket, these guns were rifled. The butt stock was similar to a carbine butt stock. The barrel was long, and the fore end extended almost all the way to the muzzle. Muskets usually had 3 barrel bands. Many Muskets were sold to foreign governments, so many had bayonet mounts on them. You don't see muskets very often.

Even though the rifles I have shown are '92s, Winchester used these configurations for all their lever guns in the 1800s.

Regarding the OP's questions, if I were going to buy a 45-70 lever gun I would buy the heaviest one I could find. I fired one of those Marlin Guide Guns a few years ago and it beat the dickens out of me with recoil. I could not keep shooting it. I would also avoid a crescent shaped butt plate and go for one with a nice rubber butt pad.
 
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I love shooting blackpowder .45/70s, have a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Infantry rifle that I shoot pretty much with only B.P loads.

The Miroku 1886 is a different beast.
The barrel is rifled specifically to shoot best with jacketed bullet loads at fairly high velocity for the caliber. hth
 
The 1886 EL isn't the only 45-70 I own.
I own 2 x Guide Guns (G + GS), Pedersoli 86/71, NEF Handi-Rifle, Baikal MP221 SxS.
Seems that old NEF is always bouncing around behind the seat of my PU and has been "Johnny-on-the-spot" for 5 moose and at least 2 deer.
The gun in your hand when you spot the animal is the one that counts.
The old Handi-Rifle has put more meat in the freezer than any of it's fancy Nancy 45-70
peers.
 
The 1886 EL isn't the only 45-70 I own.
I own 2 x Guide Guns (G + GS), Pedersoli 86/71, NEF Handi-Rifle, Baikal MP221 SxS.

How do you like the 1886 EL as compared to the Pedersoli 86/71? I had looked into the Pedersoli as well but I ended up finding a really good deal on an 1886 EL.
 
If a crazy force entered orbit and demanded I could keep only one of my guns, the marlin 1895 guide gun would be the one, assuming 45-70 ammo is available on Mars of course, for a reasonable price :D
 
The Pedersoli 86/71 is a bit slicker because it was built according to the Gospel of John Moses Browning and doesn't any of the lawyer parts of the Miroku built 1886 EL.
Still, I've dry cycled the 1886 EL and it is pretty darn slick.
The 86/71 has a 24" barrel & is heavier.
Throw a long days carry on a warn Indian summer day in November into the mix and it'll be the 1886 EL that's going hunting.
Steve Young of Steve's Gunz apparently will convert a Miroku built Winchester 1886 EL to the old legacy JMB configuration but it is expensive and I'm happy with mine the way it is.
Dry cycle the action a whole bunch of times and it'll smooth out.
 
(Beware the similar-looking No. 3; I read/hear its stock can result in brutal recoil.)
I can attest to that. Picture shooting a 10/22 in 45-70. I hated this thing growing up. Now with 300 grain LFP's over 14 grains of Trail Boss, and its a pussy cat.

ry%3D400.jpg

I also have a Marlin Guide Gun, which I like a lot. My other lever guns are all Winchesters, and I find the actions are smoother to work, but the Marlin isnt bad. I think its that little hump at the back of the bolt thats the problem. It hangs up on the hammer as the bolt goes forward.

My only other issue was the recoil pad, which I replaced with a butt plate. Fits and shoulders much better now. :)
 
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