So any advantages of the a modern rifle in .45-70?

[zdc1775]

I wonder back during that shootout in LA where two armored car robbers armed with converted Polish AKs and wear massive amounts of body armor ended up in massive firefight with LA police... If the police had a rifle loaded with 45-70 charged with 500 grain bullets could have taken out both of them with only a few shots?

I don't have any proof of the story but according to a friend of mine who was SF in Vietnam and a retired LEO who worked Fayetteville and later Western NC one of the first murder cases he worked was fellow officer who was shot with a 45-70.

Seems the officer pulled over a suspected bootlegger who then shot him in the chest with a standard pressure 45-70. When the officer was found several hours later the responding officers/EMS found that the round didn't penetrate the vest but did push the soft armor into his chest cavity far enough to shatter the sternum, rupture his heart/aorta, and physically tear the skin open.

 

[army_eod]

Einstein says it’s all relative.
The post that states that the person who carries one need not fear is correct. I would be fine with the factory Remington 405 grain round at 1500 fps or the Federal 300 grain SP at 1850 fps in most cases.
Neither round has much recoil in my opinion. Mine is a ported guide gun with 18 inch bbl. Just for fun I have some Garrett 420s that are Cape Buf killers.

 

[whm1974]

I don't have any proof of the story but according to a friend of mine who was SF in Vietnam and a retired LEO who worked Fayetteville and later Western NC one of the first murder cases he worked was fellow officer who was shot with a 45-70.

Seems the officer pulled over a suspected bootlegger who then shot him in the chest with a standard pressure 45-70. When the officer was found several hours later the responding officers/EMS found that the round didn't penetrate the vest but did push the soft armor into his chest cavity far enough to shatter the sternum, rupture his heart/aorta, and physically tear the skin open.

I wonder if people that perform body armor testing, ever thought about checking modern vests against former Military Big Bore rifles... I am assuming that LEO in urban areas are more likely to criminals armed with shotguns loaded up with hunting slugs? How heavy are 20 and 12 gauge slugs and fast how fast do they move anyway?

Considering that deer are often knocked down with them, a LEO wearing standard Type IIA Kevlar will go flying through the air and land with severe injuries, right?

 

[labnoti]

I keep going back and forth over whether to buy a 45-70, 500 S&W, or 454 Casull lever gun.

This thread has me no closer to deciding.

Maybe one of each...

None of the above? I suppose it depends on "what for?" I don't think any of those are particularly good cartridges for hunting or self/ranch defense or any other practical purpose I can think of.

 

[Varminterror]

Considering that deer are often knocked down with them, a LEO wearing standard Type IIA Kevlar will go flying through the air and land with severe injuries, right?

I haven’t quite been sure, but have been skeptical for some time now. This claim has me almost certain my suspicion was correct.

 

[labnoti]

I wonder if people that perform body armor testing, ever thought about checking modern vests against former Military Big Bore rifles... I am assuming that LEO in urban areas are more likely to criminals armed with shotguns loaded up with hunting slugs? How heavy are 20 and 12 gauge slugs and fast how fast do they move anyway?

Considering that deer are often knocked down with them, a LEO wearing standard Type IIA Kevlar will go flying through the air and land with severe injuries, right?

Most patrol officers wear armor that is comfortable enough to keep on all day, everyday of a career that could be decades long. Nowadays, it's generally IIIA soft-armor which will not protect them from any rifle rounds or a shotgun slug. Some officers wear trauma plates or use plate carriers. Those add significant weight and discomfort, but they could be rated III to stop .308, or III+ to stop 5.56x45, or IV to stop M2AP. Any of those is likely (but not tested) to stop any .45-70 round. The hard plates would not have enough backface deformation to cause serious injury, especially if they wear a trauma pad or soft armor underneath (for wider coverage). Spalling from a 400 or 500 grain big-bore bullet or slug could be dangerous and not all plates control spalling.

Compared to shotgun slugs, the modern 45-70 would penetrate better. Shotgun slugs can be heavier (12 ga foster type) but fairly slow (~1300fps) or they can be faster (sabot at ~2000 fps) but both slow rapidly (very poor BC). A typical slug would be comparable to a traditional-pressure 45-70 or one of the big-bore handgun super magnums.

 

[js8588]

None of the above? I suppose it depends on "what for?" I don't think any of those are particularly good cartridges for hunting or self/ranch defense or any other practical purpose I can think of.

Well, I've always wanted a lever gun that can run hot, heavy 45 Colt to pair with my Redhawk. The 454 would do that (Henrys & Marlins either won't feed them properly or have the wrong twist to shoot them accurately).

A 500 S&W (Bighorn Armory) would work for everything from hogs to pachyderms. Necessary? Not remotely. Fun, though. Also $pendy.

A hot loaded 45-70 would do about all a 500 S&W lever gun would (not quite as much punch at the top end, but would I ever NEED that much? Probably not), and cost far less, just doesn't quite have the same panache for me.

I don't need any of them. Sure want em, though.

 

[whm1974]

Most patrol officers wear armor that is comfortable enough to keep on all day, everyday of a career that could be decades long. Nowadays, it's generally IIIA soft-armor which will not protect them from any rifle rounds or a shotgun slug. Some officers wear trauma plates or use plate carriers. Those add significant weight and discomfort, but they could be rated III to stop .308, or III+ to stop 5.56x45, or IV to stop M2AP. Any of those is likely (but not tested) to stop any .45-70 round. The hard plates would not have enough backface deformation to cause serious injury, especially if they wear a trauma pad or soft armor underneath (for wider coverage). Spalling from a 400 or 500 grain big-bore bullet or slug could be dangerous and not all plates control spalling.

Compared to shotgun slugs, the modern 45-70 would penetrate better. Shotgun slugs can be heavier (12 ga foster type) but fairly slow (~1300fps) or they can be faster (sabot at ~2000 fps) but both slow rapidly (very poor BC). A typical slug would be comparable to a traditional-pressure 45-70 or one of the big-bore handgun super magnums.

Well I kind of doubt I would encounter some punk wearing body armor showing up at my doorstep... However I do wonder how often do LEO have to deal with such criminals anyway?

 

[js8588]

Well I kind of doubt I would encounter some punk wearing body armor showing up at my doorstep... However I do wonder how often do LEO have to deal with such criminals anyway?

If you do, & you have a 556 AR15 at hand, you should be able to poke some holes in that armor. Of course, using said punk as a test case for 45-70 vs body armor might be fun.

 

[Hanshi]

My Marlin has a 22" barrel. My favorite load is a Speer 400 grain sp for 1800 fps. It'll get your attention.

 

[whm1974]

If you do, & you have a 556 AR15 at hand, you should be able to poke some holes in that armor. Of course, using said punk as a test case for 45-70 vs body armor might be fun.

An AR-15 chambered in .458 SOCOM? How the Phoenix Weaponry RFL Christine in the.45-70 Auto? If I had to pick the the two, the .458 SOCOM would be my first choice due to more likely to get ammo in the future....