Which campus?

[Sebastian the Ibis]

How about just armed staff? I deal with college students on a daily basis and the thought of them being armed scares the hell out of me!

I deal with college staff on a daily basis and the thought of them being armed scares the hell out of me!!!

Remember this old joke:

Two university professors walk down the street and see a guy crawling out of an alley who has nearly been beaten to death. One professor looks at the other and says "you know the guy that did this really needs help."

 

[RPCVYemen]

The university is clearly and directly responsible for the safety of the people on the campus.

I am not sure that's the case. I suspect that they are responsible avoiding negligence, but not much more than that. My guess is that as long as they have a policy more or less like most other universities, they are in the clear.

I question whether the average university today has an adequate plan to deter and/or prevent Cho/VT incidents.

I don't have any question about it - I am 100% certain that the average university does not have an adequate plan to deter and/or prevent Cho/VT incidents.

Mike

 

[FCFC]

Quote:
The university is clearly and directly responsible for the safety of the people on the campus.

I am not sure that's the case. I suspect that they are responsible avoiding negligence, but not much more than that. My guess is that as long as they have a policy more or less like most other universities, they are in the clear.

The universities are are clearly and directly responsible on an ethical basis.

And on the basis of justice.

These responsibilities cannot be shirked. Even after all the lawyers in the country are done with their machinations.

 

[CNYCacher]

Mr. White, in what capacity do your "deal" with college students?

 

[RPCVYemen]

The universities are are clearly and directly responsible on an ethical basis.

Can you be more precise about ethical basis?

I am not arguing, I would like to understand more about your thinking.

My initial thoughts would be that I contract with the university for two services:

1. Educational services.
   
2. Housing (if I am living in university provided housing).

I am not sure how I see that any legal, ethical or moral contract about my personal security has been entered into with the university.

It seems to me that I have an ethical claim against the university if they don't specify the educational services to which we have agreed, or the housing to which we have agreed - and that's about it.

I think that there are often some ancillary services provided (health clinic, career counseling, etc) - but I don't see any contract for my personal security.

What is your reasoning on this issue? From what ethical principal does their responsibility derive?

Mike

 

[CNYCacher]

This poster works great at reinforcing the types of sentiments that we here all share. In other words, it is great at "preaching to the choir".

I fear that it can do little else.

The message that you are sending is an assertion that potential mass-murderers would rather attack a disarmed locale than an armed locale. This is not a particularly strong message in support of our cause. Its weakness lies in the fact that it is a non-issue in the campus carry debate.

The issue that comes up over and over and over again when debating campus carry is the responsibility level of your average college student. When you start talking about arming students, people think that you want to pass out guns at the campus entrance. Sadly, some of we pro-gunners, in our zeal to provide counter-examples, state that we would do just that ". . . if it were up to me."

The vast majority of people who are anti-campus carry are so because they believe that normal students allowed guns would be more dangerous that a VT massacre every few years. If you could wave a magic wand and totally convince 100% of the population that arming students would prevent all mass-killings, you would not have made any progress in the debate.

People see college as a large mixing bowl where you "mix" certain "ingredients" like alcohol, drugs, stress, "emotions" and if you are going to "throw guns into the mix" it is a "recipe for disaster", like the corner of your giant spatula is going to get caught on a trigger.

If you want to have an effect on the campus carry debate, you need to start framing the debate in the proper ways. This includes addressing the responsibility angle, make it clear that we don't want to arm students, we want to prevent students who are normally armed from being disarmed. Provide counterexamples like the state of Utah, and that campus in Virginia that allows guns.

As soon as you find yourself saying "if one goes berserk, another will take him down", you have lost.

 

[tigre]

I do like the poster, but I don't really know if preventing or stopping mass murders is the most important aspect of concealed carry on campus anyways. It's an angle you can use, sure, and the more ways we can attack these laws the better. But, as someone who works on a college campus and sometimes comes in very early and leaves rather late (and many undergrads have class until 9pm, too), it's not some nutcase Rambo type I'm really worried about, as that's pretty darn rare anyways. It's the walk to the parking garage in the dark, and the crummy neighborhood right next to campus, combined with a police presence that's so low I forget there are university police. I think focusing on the safety of female students particularly could help this cause. But instead of being able to defend ourselves in the same manner we'd be able to almost anywhere else, we're told to blow a whistle and use rudimentary "martial arts" to stop an attacker that might be twice our size.