which carbine for HD?
- Thread starter khegglie
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The .357 gains a lot of velocity in a rifle. According to BBTI, all from 18" barrels:
.44 Spl: 165 gr Cor Bon, 1353 fps = 671 ft lb
.44 Spl: 200 gr Cor Bon, 1286 fps = 734 ft lb
.357 Mag: 125 gr Federal, 2072 fps = 1191 ft lb
.357 Mag: 158 gr Federal, 1720 fps = 1038 ft lb
.44 Mag: 240 gr Federal, 1643 fps = 1438 ft lb
Based on the ballistics I would pick the .357, more power than the .44 Spl and less recoil and probably less overpenetration than the .44 Mag.
But really, I would just pick the one I liked the best.
.44 Spl: 165 gr Cor Bon, 1353 fps = 671 ft lb
.44 Spl: 200 gr Cor Bon, 1286 fps = 734 ft lb
.357 Mag: 125 gr Federal, 2072 fps = 1191 ft lb
.357 Mag: 158 gr Federal, 1720 fps = 1038 ft lb
.44 Mag: 240 gr Federal, 1643 fps = 1438 ft lb
Based on the ballistics I would pick the .357, more power than the .44 Spl and less recoil and probably less overpenetration than the .44 Mag.
But really, I would just pick the one I liked the best.
Sunray
Member
None. Far too much penetration if you opt for a jacketed bullet. And assuming the home is urban.
"...thinking of using .44spl out of the .44..." .44 Special brass is hard to come by. Just load .44 Mag brass to Special velocities.
"...thinking of using .44spl out of the .44..." .44 Special brass is hard to come by. Just load .44 Mag brass to Special velocities.
TexasPatriot.308
Member
I got a .44 mag carbine, lots of recoil, would use it if I had to, for home defense something like a 9mm, .40 or .45acp would be better. those Hi Points are damn ugly but just right for home defense, put a red laser on it and would be just right. Hi Point carbines are cheap but dependable.
Between the 2 It is probably a toss up. I'd not choose either if other options were available, but if you just want to use what you have they'll work.
If buying new, an AR will cost less, ammo is less expensive, recoil is about 60% less, it will be lighter, shorter, more effective and far less likely to over penetrate.
If buying new, an AR will cost less, ammo is less expensive, recoil is about 60% less, it will be lighter, shorter, more effective and far less likely to over penetrate.
Inebriated
Member
Whichever one you can securely mount a light to....
matrem
Member
Tween .357 or .44 mag, I'd just use the one I was most comfortable with, or more likely in most folks case, the one most convenient to get in hand.
Why in the world would you want to use .44 specials if magnums can run through your gun?
Velocity is a wonderful thing when needing to incapacitate just about anything you want to stop.
I'm not convinced a light mounted on a home defense gun is best, but, there are a multitude of possible scenarios.
Why in the world would you want to use .44 specials if magnums can run through your gun?
Velocity is a wonderful thing when needing to incapacitate just about anything you want to stop.
I'm not convinced a light mounted on a home defense gun is best, but, there are a multitude of possible scenarios.
Inebriated
Member
If target ID matters at all to you.khegglie said:
matrem
Member
Yep.
You need to see exactly what it is you're shooting, but a light mounted directly on your gun is not always the best way to achieve that.
You need to see exactly what it is you're shooting, but a light mounted directly on your gun is not always the best way to achieve that.
4thPointOfContact
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If you have neighbors or kids 'down range' in whatever direction you may need to fire, I'd go with the highest velocity and the most lightly constructed bullet. Funny thing, 9mm will outperform 5.56 when it comes to wall penetration; the 5.56 fragments pretty early which protects those 'down range'.
ACP
Member
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Do you really want to shoot Magnum 1600, 1700, and 2000fps loads indoors in a SD situation?
No, you do not.
I had a Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum for years. I shot plenty of 44 Special Silvertips out of it. They are like shooting a cap gun, and have plenty of stink.
Use the 44 Special. It's a big hunk of lead, softer report, lower recoil, and will easily get the job done if you place your shot well.
Re: a light... I have a Surefire forend on my Mossberg 590. I wouldn't do without it. I'm not sure how you would mount a dedicated light on a levergun.
No, you do not.
I had a Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum for years. I shot plenty of 44 Special Silvertips out of it. They are like shooting a cap gun, and have plenty of stink.
Use the 44 Special. It's a big hunk of lead, softer report, lower recoil, and will easily get the job done if you place your shot well.
Re: a light... I have a Surefire forend on my Mossberg 590. I wouldn't do without it. I'm not sure how you would mount a dedicated light on a levergun.
zerobarrier
Contributing Member
This 44mag
or this 9mm
or this 9mm
matrem
Member
Good Grief.
All this talk of .44 special or .38 special?
Again, velocity has a wonderful advantage at stopping, not to mention virtually all expanding bullets penetrate less when impacting at higher velocity.
Use either .357 or .44 magnum and shoot the lightest bullets you can find if overpenetration is any type of issue.
All this talk of .44 special or .38 special?
Again, velocity has a wonderful advantage at stopping, not to mention virtually all expanding bullets penetrate less when impacting at higher velocity.
Use either .357 or .44 magnum and shoot the lightest bullets you can find if overpenetration is any type of issue.
Inebriated
Member
I would use .357/.38 without hesitation. I don't know 357's carbine ballistics, but whatever offers the lightest bullet going the highest speed while maintaining bullet integrity and consistent penetration is the way I would go.
As an example; Looking at Hornady's site, their 125gr XTP's performance range is 1200-1700fps. Looking at BBTI's page, it would likely be moving around 2000fps if loaded to magnum specs and fired from a 16" barrel [going off their CorBon 125gr magnum data]. Same bullet in a .38 SPC load from the same barrel would be closer to 1250fps [again, CorBon 125gr 38 data]. If the magnum load pushes it past it's performance range, I would rather shoot the .38 SPC and maintain bullet integrity.
Like I said... I'm not an expert in 357/38 carbine ballistics, but it's something I would look into before choosing a load.
As an example; Looking at Hornady's site, their 125gr XTP's performance range is 1200-1700fps. Looking at BBTI's page, it would likely be moving around 2000fps if loaded to magnum specs and fired from a 16" barrel [going off their CorBon 125gr magnum data]. Same bullet in a .38 SPC load from the same barrel would be closer to 1250fps [again, CorBon 125gr 38 data]. If the magnum load pushes it past it's performance range, I would rather shoot the .38 SPC and maintain bullet integrity.
Like I said... I'm not an expert in 357/38 carbine ballistics, but it's something I would look into before choosing a load.
Sure, having flood lights outside and low-energy ambient lighting inside is great, but if there is no other light available, the light on your rifle is all you have.matrem said:
I'd just bolt a rail section to the handguard and mount the light to that. Won't be pretty, but it'll work.ACP said:
Sheepdog1968
Member
Bigger bullets make bigger holes. Mind the backstop.
There are more important considerations than what gun or ammo. Really.
First, do all that is necessary to make your house less attractive to those who would intrude into it. That is largely the usual security and lighting any home security advisor would suggest.
Second, trim your list of friends who are sketchy, especially those who bring other unknown friends into your home without prior permission. That is the #1 way that a burglar or intruder discovers what is worth stealing - the homeowner allows them in and shows them what they want to come back for.
Therefore, keep the high dollar items out of public view, especially where they can be seen. Take a look yourself in your neighborhood, how many leave the garage door open and display their expensive tool chests and gun safes for all to see?
With all that done, then choose your favorite and most capable firearm. It needs to be short, easy to reload and fire. That means it should be a self loading action for single hand use.
Choose whatever caliber or cartridge you want, it won't make any difference. It will be too loud indoors, and it will penetrate the windows of the house across the street if it's inline with your front door if you are shooting back at intruders there with it open.
The two issues most ignore are noise and lanes of fire. Some suggest suppressors but for the working cost of acquisition, you could outfit your family with $150 Peltor Tactical Sport muffs and have not only the protection you need but also hear during gunfire. A typical suppressor for one gun is $200 + a trust + $500-700 on the low side of costs.
I've read snarky comments about "so you're going to put on a set of muffs when you hear breaking glass?" which isn't the norm. Most let the intruders in, or they are beating on the door. Do the other homework right on security and they can't break the glass even if they could get to it.
As for shooting lanes nobody maps out where they will likely be shooting and what will be behind them getting shot at by the bad guys. You DO have a responsibility to know where you shouldn't shoot, and lower penetration ammo is a nice thought. However the intruders dont' give a rip and will be blasting away with whatever they brought with them. Is your family going to be in a safe room that is actually safe, or are they just downrange of all the bullets flying thru the wall?
If you are chased into your safe room and they start shooting thru the door to disable the lock, will your cartridge be capable of returning effective fire?
What the cops use to reduce liability and prevent lethal injury to the potential detainee or innocent bystanders is not necessarily what a homeowner is restricted to using or even a good recommendation. This is the major fallacy of reduced penetration - it only means it affects you.
Food for thought, and a little practice walking thru your lanes of fire in the home will show what you can and can't do with the gun of choice and where you might need to make a different decision.
First, do all that is necessary to make your house less attractive to those who would intrude into it. That is largely the usual security and lighting any home security advisor would suggest.
Second, trim your list of friends who are sketchy, especially those who bring other unknown friends into your home without prior permission. That is the #1 way that a burglar or intruder discovers what is worth stealing - the homeowner allows them in and shows them what they want to come back for.
Therefore, keep the high dollar items out of public view, especially where they can be seen. Take a look yourself in your neighborhood, how many leave the garage door open and display their expensive tool chests and gun safes for all to see?
With all that done, then choose your favorite and most capable firearm. It needs to be short, easy to reload and fire. That means it should be a self loading action for single hand use.
Choose whatever caliber or cartridge you want, it won't make any difference. It will be too loud indoors, and it will penetrate the windows of the house across the street if it's inline with your front door if you are shooting back at intruders there with it open.
The two issues most ignore are noise and lanes of fire. Some suggest suppressors but for the working cost of acquisition, you could outfit your family with $150 Peltor Tactical Sport muffs and have not only the protection you need but also hear during gunfire. A typical suppressor for one gun is $200 + a trust + $500-700 on the low side of costs.
I've read snarky comments about "so you're going to put on a set of muffs when you hear breaking glass?" which isn't the norm. Most let the intruders in, or they are beating on the door. Do the other homework right on security and they can't break the glass even if they could get to it.
As for shooting lanes nobody maps out where they will likely be shooting and what will be behind them getting shot at by the bad guys. You DO have a responsibility to know where you shouldn't shoot, and lower penetration ammo is a nice thought. However the intruders dont' give a rip and will be blasting away with whatever they brought with them. Is your family going to be in a safe room that is actually safe, or are they just downrange of all the bullets flying thru the wall?
If you are chased into your safe room and they start shooting thru the door to disable the lock, will your cartridge be capable of returning effective fire?
What the cops use to reduce liability and prevent lethal injury to the potential detainee or innocent bystanders is not necessarily what a homeowner is restricted to using or even a good recommendation. This is the major fallacy of reduced penetration - it only means it affects you.
Food for thought, and a little practice walking thru your lanes of fire in the home will show what you can and can't do with the gun of choice and where you might need to make a different decision.
I would use the .357 with a load at ~2000fps. This is enough velocity where the temporary cavity can cause permanent tissue damage like a rifle round. I would also choose the HP load based on it's performance at this velocity, finding data may be tough. It should penetrate less than the .44spl due to light weight, high velocity.
I would also put a RDS and light on it, and it will be a heck of a HD carbine. In comparison, the M1 Carbine, 110g @ ~2000fps in soft point does not go over 18" in gel.
I would also put a RDS and light on it, and it will be a heck of a HD carbine. In comparison, the M1 Carbine, 110g @ ~2000fps in soft point does not go over 18" in gel.
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