Which HighPower AR15?

[drummingpariah]

I'm in way over my head. I've been looking for an excuse to buy an ar15 for years, but knew I lacked a real reason to invest that kind of money into something that would effectively be a decoration. I believe I've finally found a real excuse that i can get behind, after watching a few videos about highpower rifle competitions. I think it's a VERY cool type of competition, and I love that it's iron sights only. I'm a sucker for iron sights.

I recently sold my SKS and Sig sp2022, planning to pick up something that I could use with a purpose, and I've been shopping around for awhile now. After looking through Bushmaster and DPMS' websites looking for a decent, reasonably-priced (under $1,000USD or so?) competition rifle, I've realized that I have no idea what to look for. I'd gauge myself as a reasonably good shot, but I'm very inexperienced. I'm looking for a learning rifle.

If I've provided enough information, I'm looking for recommendations ... but I expect that it's more likely that I'll get questions instead of answers. I also hope that those questions are of greater value to me than a simple answer. Thanks in advance for any advice, cautionary tales, or questions you provide.

 

[Welding Rod]

Hard to go wrong with a Rock River NM A2. Not many shooters are ever going to outgrow it at the club level.

I had one and liked it, but decided to compete with my Rock River Standard A2 instead as the NM style free float tube adds more heft under the hand guards than I like when shooting offhand.

In the future I may try a light profile barrel (if I can find one that is really accurate) and a light weight quad rail in an attempt to get a light setup that still floats the barrel so that it is imune to sling load. I don't know if this would be much lighter than a HBAR with free float tube or not, but I think it might be.

You are right, high power is an awesome way to spend a Saturday or Sunday. I have about 24 matches under my belt now and really like it. Wish I would have started years ago.

 

[Warp]

I would not buy a Bushmaster or a DPMS.

Hit up the search feature. I'd start with "AR15" in the thread title. There is more out there on this than you could ever possibly read.

What do you mean by "highpower"?

 

[HDCamel]

Well, if the ArmaLite website is to be believed...

Year after year, more national-level military shooters have chosen ArmaLite National Match rifles than any other brand.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.as...Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

Of course, popularity doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

 

[Tim the student]

I'm kind of in the same boat. Service rifle looks like a heck of a lot of fun. I think I'd need to sell a rifle to get into it though - at least into it next season.

FWIW, I always hear guys talk up RRA and WOA - but bear in mind I'm not a competitor, just a guy like you that thinks it looks like a good time.

 

[drummingpariah]

I would not buy a Bushmaster or a DPMS.

Any non-anecdotal evidence to back that up? I'm all ears to advice, but I'm more interested in the reasons behind the advice than the end result.

Hit up the search feature. I'd start with "AR15" in the thread title. There is more out there on this than you could ever possibly read.

That's like searching through the Constitution for the word "WE": It doesn't really narrow down the results to what you're looking for. I've done a LOT of reading about the ar15, including books, reading several review threads here, reading about the history of the black gun, and all kinds of stuff that I don't actually care about (but should know, just the same). I have a fairly good idea of what I'm looking for, and my budget, but from what I could find, it hasn't been directly addressed yet (I may not have looked hard enough, I only looked through the first 10 pages of search results).

What do you mean by "highpower"?

Excellent question, it's one that I spent a long time trying to figure out. Highpower competition is a specific class of NRA and CMP rifle competition using the ar15 and m1 based platforms with iron sights (no optics allowed in most competitions) with a few different stages (fast, slow; standing, kneeling/sitting, prone) and at a few different ranges (600yards through iron sights is a challenge I'm excited about). What it really means is "not .22lr", as far as I can find, but I believe all rifles need to use their service rifle chambering. I'm not an expert, so don't go around quoting me on anything I just typed, I'm just doing my best to regurgitate some very messy documentation that's scattered around the internet.

Hard to go wrong with a Rock River NM A2. Not many shooters are ever going to outgrow it at the club level.

I had one and liked it, but decided to compete with my Rock River Standard A2 instead as the NM style free float tube adds more heft under the hand guards than I like when shooting offhand.

In the future I may try a light profile barrel (if I can find one that is really accurate) and a light weight quad rail in an attempt to get a light setup that still floats the barrel so that it is imune to sling load. I don't know if this would be much lighter than a HBAR with free float tube or not, but I think it might be.

You are right, high power is an awesome way to spend a Saturday or Sunday. I have about 24 matches under my belt now and really like it. Wish I would have started years ago.

I'm really excited to try it, but finding information has been pretty difficult overall, with most of the good advice I've found coming from local shooting clubs (that aren't local to me at all, they simply have guides on the internet that i can pore through).

As far as the barrel goes, that seems to be a heated topic of debate. A lighter barrel makes holding positions (especially offhand) much easier, but a heavier barrel makes absorbing recoil easier (at least, that sounds right in my head).

The Rock River NM A2 would be toward the upper end of my budget, especially after adding a glove and sling (I'm not going wild buying all the equipment at once, but that sounds like the bare minimum requirement). However, I like the idea of having a rifle that i won't be able to blame on days that I'm not competitive.

 

[drummingpariah]

Well, if the ArmaLite website is to be believed...

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.as...Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

Of course, popularity doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

Yeah, marketing folks like statements like that. DPMS and Bushmaster have similar statements suggesting that they're the best choice in the whole wide world of guns. It seems to me that ArmaLite makes excellent weapons, but that their name carries a very large premium. I'm no collector, I just want something that I can shoot the snot out of and get reasonable results from.

I'm kind of in the same boat. Service rifle looks like a heck of a lot of fun. I think I'd need to sell a rifle to get into it though - at least into it next season.

FWIW, I always hear guys talk up RRA and WOA - but bear in mind I'm not a competitor, just a guy like you that thinks it looks like a good time.

Sounds like we're in just the same boat, I'm just a half-step ahead of you (I've already sold a rifle). I don't expect or need to be especially competitive, I'm just looking for a hobby with a "point" to it. I like how organized highpower is, and how much it reminds me of archery competitions (a bit more of an art than a physical competition).

From what I've read (again, this is all just internet-regurgitation) service rifle is a higher-level competition. If I wanted to be put in my place by 12-year-olds, I'd play Modern Warfare. I'm not sure my ego can handle that.

 

[Warp]

Any non-anecdotal evidence to back that up? I'm all ears to advice, but I'm more interested in the reasons behind the advice than the end result.

Search.

Seriously.

There's one of these threads ever 6.5 hours. We don't need to go through it all over again every time.

Also check out www.m4carbine.net, and search there as well.

 

[drummingpariah]

Search.

Seriously.

There's one of these threads ever 6.5 hours. We don't need to go through it all over again every time.

Also check out www.m4carbine.net, and search there as well.

I'm not trying to kick up a bee's nest or anything here, but the first result in my search was this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=685992

You stated that you don't like them in that thread, and mastiffhound had a friend who had stovepipe issues. Everyone else in the thread gives DPMS a good review. The common complaint appears to be non-chrome-lined barrels, which should be offset in a stainless steel bull barrel (which is my plan anyway). I'm happy to accept that they're sub-par, but I've looked around on a handful of forums so far trying to find some facts to back up the reputation they have with some people and haven't been able to find anything substantial. I've spent some time throwing rounds at targets with a couple friends' DPMS rifles, and they didn't cause me any problems either.

I'll continue looking of course, but if your backing evidence is "search for reasons not to buy these" I'm not sure what you're trying to contribute to my question. I hope that doesn't come off as offensive or condescending, I merely prefer to make decisions based upon facts above all else.

Back to the main discussion, this is the only reason I mentioned DPMS in the first place:
http://www.dpmsinc.com/BULL-20_ep_142-1.html
It would need a sling, a magazine (or two, or three, depending upon the quality and reliability of the stock magazine), and good iron sights (which are pretty pricey, it turns out).

I was concerned about weight initially, but it turns out that a good percentage of highpower rifle competitors add lead weights to their stocks and foregrips to balance the rifle out, so a hefty rifle appears to be less of a concern.

 

[WNTFW]

In this case since you are looking for an AR15 that term would be a 'National Match' Service Rifle. The main brands in my area are White Oak. Next would be RRA. After that you see whatever else is out there including Compass Lake, Armalite and Bushmaster.
White Oak is pretty much the standard by which all others are judged. You are not gaining anything by going another route. You are not necessarily giving up anything going with another. It comes down to some details. It is also affected by price, availability, wait times. I think WO cost no more than RRA. Look at pinned rear sight and windage adjustable FSB on the WOA/WOP

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php?cat=259
http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm

Don't worry about the 2 names - same people.

The rifle is a small part of the overall cost. I think you are wise not spending too much on it.

First thing to do is make it out to a match. I can shoot a rental NM AR15 at a match near my home. The rifle is sorted and I picked one out of a group & shot a 96 offhand with a RRA NM AR. That was a personal best moment for me.
In HP the shooter is what gets the job done. The equipment has to be up to par but there are no real equipment advantages by spending more & splitting hairs.

To start practicing just shoot anything you can at whatever distance you can from the positions. If the aiming black is the width of your sight post the sight pic is about right. You may have to scale the target. I shoot air rifle & .22lr on reduced targets. Calling your shots and wind reading are skills to develop.

You sound like you are in it to have fun and that is a good place to be.
Best of luck to you.

 

[drummingpariah]

In this case since you are looking for an AR15 that term would be a 'National Match' Service Rifle. The main brands in my area are White Oak. Next would be RRA. After that you see whatever else is out there including Compass Lake, Armalite and Bushmaster.
White Oak is pretty much the standard by which all others are judged. You are not gaining anything by going another route. You are not necessarily giving up anything going with another. It comes down to some details. It is also affected by price, availability, wait times. I think WO cost no more than RRA. Look at pinned rear sight and windage adjustable FSB on the WOA/WOP

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php?cat=259
http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm

Don't worry about the 2 names - same people.

The rifle is a small part of the overall cost. I think you are wise not spending too much on it.

First thing to do is make it out to a match. I can shoot a rental NM AR15 at a match near my home. The rifle is sorted and I picked one out of a group & shot a 96 offhand with a RRA NM AR. That was a personal best moment for me.
In HP the shooter is what gets the job done. The equipment has to be up to par but there are no real equipment advantages by spending more & splitting hairs.

To start practicing just shoot anything you can at whatever distance you can from the positions. If the aiming black is the width of your sight post the sight pic is about right. You may have to scale the target. I shoot air rifle & .22lr on reduced targets. Calling your shots and wind reading are skills to develop.

You sound like you are in it to have fun and that is a good place to be.
Best of luck to you.

Much appreciated. My rifle experience has been limited to .22lr, .223rem, .308, and 7.62x39, and I fell in love with the precision a rifle offers after a lot of handgun shooting. Apparently the ballistic properties of .22lr @ 100yards is comparable to .223rem @ 600yards, which made my day (it means I may be able to practice right here at home, rather than having to visit a range).

I was really hoping to find a local range or gun club that would have rental or loaner gear that I could use, but it's been a discouraging search. I've tried 6 clubs so far, and none could/would help me out. I think if I can stay under $2000 to get started on my first season, it still isn't a bad investment. The rifle is just one piece of that budget, since I'd be budgeting cleaning equipment, magazines, ammunition (with the possibility of reloads), sling, glove, possibly even a mat to kneel on, a stand, and a spotting scope.

For a ~$675 upper, I really can't come up with any reason not to go with a White Oak upper. I think that, combined with a lower of some sort (which could be replaced at some point in the future, and built into another rifle), would be just the ticket for me. I hadn't even heard of them before, but they're purpose-built, and I can't find any complaints about them.

 

[MistWolf]

If you are serious about shooting Service Rifle sign up at this site
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/

 

[Justin]

White Oak is definitely the way to go for a High Power service rifle.

Searching the archives isn't a bad idea, but search bad on high power related terms rather than AR15 terms and you should get better results. Unfortunately, not many people shout high power these days, so finding good info can be a but of a quest.

Also, shoot Taliv a PM. Iirc, he shoots high power, and should be able to give you some good info. We've also got a handful of other users here who do or did shoot high power add well. Also check the website for the CMP.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk. Hence all the misspellings and goofy word choices.

 

[drummingpariah]

If you are serious about shooting Service Rifle sign up at this site
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/

I was just drafting an introductory post over there.

White Oak is definitely the way to go for a High Power service rifle.

Searching the archives isn't a bad idea, but search bad on high power related terms rather than AR15 terms and you should get better results. Unfortunately, not many people shout high power these days, so finding good info can be a but of a quest.

Also, shoot Taliv a PM. Iirc, he shoots high power, and should be able to give you some good info. We've also got a handful of other users here who do or did shoot high power add well. Also check the website for the CMP.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk. Hence all the misspellings and goofy word choices.

I'll do that, but I'm getting ready to pass out pretty soon here. This weekend I'll start a budget sheet laying out what I think my season's expenses will be, and see if I can actually do this thing (it looks good right now, but logistics often throw my plans off).

 

[MachIVshooter]

It seems to me that ArmaLite makes excellent weapons, but that their name carries a very large premium

The Armalite NM rifle is about $70 more than the RRA.

They really are competetive:

Armalite M15A4CBK (M4gery, Mil Spec Chrome Vanadium chrome lined barrel, no carry handle, lifetime warranty): $889 at Impactguns

DPMS AP4 (M4gery, 4140 chromoly barrel, NOT chrome lined, includes carry handle, 3 year warranty): $899 at Impactguns

Rock River CAR A4 (M4gery, 4140 chromoly barrel, NOT chrome lined, includes detacheable rear sight, lifetime warranty): $939 at Impactguns

Bushmaster M4 (Chromoly chrome lined barrel, includes carry handle, one year warranty): $988 at Impactguns

 

[jim243]

looking for a decent, reasonably-priced (under $1,000USD or so?) competition rifle,

At that price range, there really is no such thing. A plinking rifle yes, a competition rifle, no unless you build one yourself, but even then you are going to go over your budget.

If you are going to compete in Service Rifle, you need a Service Rifle and not all AR's meet those specs. The easest and fast way to find out is to go to a couple of comps and see what the competitors are using and get their opinion. (If I am betting on a horse race , I always ask the horses who is going to win or the jockeys.)

I don't give a hill of beans who's name is on the gun, I would need the most accurate barrel and chamber, all the rest is flash and window dressing and would not make you shoot more accurate with the exception of a free floated hand guard (not sure they are allowed in Service Rifle comps though).

Like I said talk to the people that actually shoot these compentitions for their take on what is good or bad.

Jim

 

[rskent]

drummingpariah

If I were you I would seek out the match directors at your local ranges. The director at our local range helped me out immeasurably.
He got me on track with positions and such. I shot for quite a while with a bone stock A2 Bushmaster and no shooting coat. After a
while you start to figure out what you need in a rifle and gear and what you don't.
It is great fun, and worth the effort.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Rock River lower, White Oak upper, go shoot. Should set you back around $1100 or so.

An Armalite or RRA out of the box National Match model will work too. Mine is an Armalite and has been rock solid and bullet proof over many seasons. (Check my signature line.) It's on it's 3rd barrel now and remember, whatever you pick now is sort of fungible in the future. You're not 100% stuck with whatever came on your rifle. Want a "better" trigger? Toss in a Giesselle. Don't like how your sights track on a stock RRA upper? Send it to White Oak for the sight pinning mod.

The rifle cost is probably the smallest part of entering Highpower competition. Next up will be a good shooting coat, stool and spotting scope. Then, ammunition! If you don't reload, now is a great time to start. Very little of what comes out of a factory box marked ".223 Remington" is suitable for shooting 600 yards with an AR-15.

(No, for all of the folks who will tell me they make 500-meter hits with M-193 all day, fine. We're talking MOA X-ring accuracy here, not 18x24" steel plate "ping" accuracy.)

 

[mavracer]

If you can swing a WOA upper any mil-spec lower with a good trigger will get you far. By the time you need a better rifle you'll need a new rifle.
My WOA service match does a great job of eliminating my excuse that it's the gun cause it'll stay under MOA out to 600 yards.
Another suggestion I'd make is to get a 22lr trainer to practice position shooting.

 

[cfullgraf]

I don't give a hill of beans who's name is on the gun, I would need the most accurate barrel and chamber, all the rest is flash and window dressing and would not make you shoot more accurate with the exception of a free floated hand guard (not sure they are allowed in Service Rifle comps though).


Jim

Service rifles have to look like service rifles from the outside, not necessary from the inside. So, free float handguards are permitted, but they look like service rifle handgaurds.

For the OP, as mentioned, spend the money on at least a Service Rifle prepped upper. They really are not that expensive particularly when compared to other kinds of match rifles.

The main features are a good barrel, a free float handguard, and a good trigger. There are other nice to have improvements as well. Get a copy of the rules as allowable modifications are specific. It would be best to know what is allowed going in before getting hyped on a bunch of wiz bang features that are illegal by the rules.

I have a Compass Lake. I have had good service from White Oak on other AR related stuff. Rock River has a good reputation.

 

[MrBorland]

Rock River lower, White Oak upper, go shoot.

Sweet.

I'm nearly in the same boat as the OP, having just traded a shooting buddy for a RRA A2 lower with a Geissele trigger. I've been set on a WOA upper, dies, and a boatload of cases and bullets, so it sounds like my plan for startup gear has been sound.

 

[henschman]

I think you can meet your price goal if you get a WOA upper and put together your own lower with a stripped lower receiver and a lower parts kit. It is really easy, and doesn't require very many tools. It is a great way to save a lot of money on an AR build. You will want an A2 stock for that type of competition, not any of the collapsible carbine stuff.

 

[stubbicatt]

Service Rifle or Match Rifle?

I finished my cross the course highpower career/hobby with a bolt actioned "match rifle." You can buy a typical flat top AR and equip it with match sights and probably find that you shoot a bit better than you would with a service rifle.

Have fun!

 

[Welding Rod]

The big thing IMO is to just start competing. High power is primarly a skill game, not so much an equipment game.

I have been shooting for about 1 1/2 seasons now and I still use a motorcycle glove, a piece of remnant carpet to lay on, and don't own a shooting coat. I did already have a nice spotting scope though. However my scope stands out like a sore thumb as it doesn't have the cool angled eyepiece and sits on a camera tripod. That is what I had and it works for now. I am still competitive at the club level and have a great time.

The single most important part of the rifle in this sport IMO is a good clean trigger break.

 

[Warp]

The common complaint appears to be non-chrome-lined barrels,

The common complaint that I see is that they do not work reliably.

Example: The first thing I said in the thread you linked:

"The 5.56/AR DPMS rifles I have experience were not reliable.

I haven't yet had anybody give me a good reason to buy a DPMS. When I am spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars, I want a good reason to spend the money. DPMS doesn't seem to have a good reason to get my money.