which is better? Ballistic tip or boat tail soft point for deer?

[Shawnee]

Bornagain...

What's with your attittude, lad? Don't get you panties in a wad.

If you like the BTs and the .308 - fine - use and recommend 'em. But stick your attitude where the sun don't shine..

 

[springfield1911loaded]

since you want me to go into more detail: the place where i killed it is on our hunting club's land and we have every 50 yards marked and he was in between the 11th and 12th pink tape we have set up so thats how i guessed the range and as for the shot i did aim from what i recal 1 and a half feet above his back which is a total of about 2.5 foot drop from time of shot to time of entrance. now i know i was VERY lucky with the shot wether it was wind or a miracle i hit him and as you said neither would i take a shot like that again. if you need more detail just tell me.

 

[JWarren]

As for the .308 being overpowered for deer... millions of deer have been killed by muzzleloaders, by the 30/30, by the .22/250, by the .243, and by the .250 Savage and the .257 Roberts.... so, yes, the .308 is way overpowered for deer.

By that logic, 22lr is not underpowered, and anything over that is overpowered. More deer have been killed with a 22lr than any of us would like. No, this isn't saying that I consider 22lr on deer ethical. But it has happened and will happen again albiet illegally.

I base the consideration of over-powered as a function of lost meat. I've never lost much meat with either .308 or 30-06. And the vast number of my shots have been shoulder/heart-lung shots.

I base the consideration of underpowered as what runs a significant risk of an unethical/prolonged kill with anything less then optimal shot placement.

With .308 and 30-06, I have only had one deer run more than FIVE (5) steps prior to dropping. Of course, that doesn't mean anything. The one that DID run more than 5 steps ran 75 yards. When I found it, the deer was shot through the heart and lung. Sometimes it just works out that way. I've been very lucky/fortunate that I've not had to track the vast majority of my own deer. I have, however, had to track for others in my family.

Can lesser calibers make ethical kills? You bet. But there is an increase in probablity that the shot is less than ideal as you drop in caliber.

Conversely, as caliber increases, there is a point where meat loss is unacceptable. From my experience, I neither .308 nor 30-06 approaches that level. I, however, have not purchased anything like a 300 win. mag. because I have friends that use them. They just destroy too much meat for the deer of the size that live here.

To me, 308 and 30-06 exist within that optimal range where I do not worry about the capabilites of the round to make an ethical and humane kill, but I also do not worry about being wasteful.

I see caliber considerations as a sliding scale of compromises. Depending on the game, you find the level where you have an acceptable amount of each consideration. There are plenty calibers to choose from in the mid-sized game area to choose from that have varying aspects.

For the above reasons, I do not consider .308 or 30-06 to be over-powered.



-- John

 

[Shawnee]

Hi JWarren...

"Can lesser calibers make ethical kills? You bet. But there is an increase in probablity that the shot is less than ideal as you drop in caliber."

To copy your tactic - by that logic a caliber larger than .308 will have less probability than the .308 of a prolonged kill - and so now we're up to hutning deer with nothing less than a 20mm cannon.

I didn't say the .22lr was a "logical" deer caliber - you did, and you know that's wrong.

As I encouraged "BornAgain" - if you like the .308 - have at it. It's still overpowered.

 

[JWarren]

I didn't say the .22lr was a "logical" deer caliber - you did, and you know that's wrong.

Do please tell me where I said such a thing that 22lr was a logical deer caliber. Don't put words in my mouth, if you don't mind.


And please do tell me where we started talking about "logical" anything.

by that logic a caliber larger than .308 will have less probability than the .308 of a prolonged kill - and so now we're up to hutning deer with nothing less than a 20mm cannon.

I suspect that you missed this part:


JWarren wrote:

I see caliber considerations as a sliding scale of compromises. Depending on the game, you find the level where you have an acceptable amount of each consideration. There are plenty calibers to choose from in the mid-sized game area to choose from that have varying aspects.

But whatever.


-- John

 

[Shawnee]

"By that logic, 22lr is not underpowered, and anything over that is overpowered."


Your words from Your post, JWarren. You put them in your mouth, not me.


I figure it like this... If a caliber has the power (and appropriate bullets) to cleanly kill a deer at any range within the shooter's capability it is an appropriate deer caliber - and, yes, that includes several calibers. If a caliber is of significant excess of power to meet those requirements then it is "overpowered", eg. characterized by power that isn't necessary. And in that situation it is entirely possible the excess of power works to the detriment of the shooter's ability to make cleanly lethal shot placements - and in more than a few cases people will use a caliber of excess power as a crutch or excuse to take shots they should never take.

Does all that mean you are a gutshooter? No.

Does it all mean the .308 is The Devil's Brew? No.

It means the .308 is overpowered for deer.

 

[JWarren]

Shawnee,

You are failing to grasp the difference between a statement illustrating the trouble in a thought process and advocation of such process.

I'll illustrate:

If one was to say...

People look at porn on computers. You own a computer. Therefore, you look at porn.

That would be an incorrect correlation and a non-valid thought process.

By my illustrating that non-valid thought process, I would have a problem with someone then saying that "You stated that owning a computer means you look at porn on the computer."

No, that wasn't at all what I said in the above example.


My saying:

JWarren wrote:

"By that logic, 22lr is not underpowered, and anything over that is overpowered."

Is NOT equivalent to my saying anything that resembles


Shawnee wrote:

I didn't say the .22lr was a "logical" deer caliber - you did

No, I did no such thing. I illustrated the error of using number of deer killed with a caliber to guage whether that caliber should be considered underkill, overkill, appropriate, ethical, or unethical.

Your words from Your post, JWarren. You put them in your mouth, not me.

Clearly, I didn't say what you thought I said.





However, this whole discussion veers off the topic. I posted this in order to attempt to explain how attempting to highlight an error in a thought-process IS NOT the equivalent of actually subscribing to the very thought process you are highlighing the error within.


I actually don't think you and I are saying anything all that different. I willingly and happily concede that there are a plethera of calibers below .30 caliber (specifically 308 and/or 30-06) that are perfectly adequate to ethically hunt deer. I actually never made a claim otherwise.

By that every concession, I logically have to concede that anything above some nebulous "perfect" caliber would be theoretically overkill.

For instance...

If we had some quantifiable and undisputable method of reaching an agreement that .243 Winchester was the perfect caliber for deer. It necessarily follows that anything greater in caliber and/or muzzle energy is overkill-- even if the amount of "overkill" is an insignificant amount.

And no... I did NOT just say 243 was anything. I used it as an example.


However, the entire concept of "overkill" MUST to come into question. I suspect that we cannot even get a consensus on what that means. It seems that there isn't such consensus even on this thread-- let alone in the firearms community.

To me, I do not even concern myself with "overkill" concerns until I start losing a significant amount of meat from the effect of making the shot. In my SUBJECTIVE measure, I do not feel that 308 or 30-06 has reached that point.

And the very fact that you and I disagree only illustrates the subjective nature of this topic.


EDIT:

Let's you, me, and whoever else that may have an opinion on "overkill" of 308, 30-06, or any other caliber either drop it, or take it to a new thread. Let's leave this one back for the BTSP or Ballistic Tip discussion.

Best,


-- John