HuntAndFish
Member
10-Ring said:
I shoot the j-frame better but I practice with it more.
Which is easier to shoot, small wheelguns or sub compact semis?
- Thread starter 10-Ring
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I shoot the j-frame better but I practice with it more.
DawgFvr
Member
I just went to the range with my P38T, PT145 and my 642. I love the revovler but at 25 feet, both autos tore up the ten ring on the target. My S&W 642 manage to hit the target...most of the time...even at slow, aimed fire it was very poor at 25 feet. The J frame is good at about 15 feet or less...much what I expect out of this short barrelled long double action trigger. DAO autos were so much better. The little .380 was a pain to shoot...after three clips it actually hurt my hand. The best of the three was the PT145. Now...it is pretty picky on ammo...it does not like hard primers like the cheap Winchester white box. Using Speer or Corbon, however, it just ate up the target...10 + 1 in .45 ACP is the ultimate in personal defense methinks. I am still a 642 advocate...I just need to practice weekly to hit the target with it.
Radagast
Member
I found my model 60 easier to shoot than my Glock 19, with better groups at 15 metres. I also found the Glock 27 easier to shoot than the model 60!
AK103K
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I shoot and practice with both. I shoot the autos better. If I try to shoot "groups", my P239/357SIG's groups at 15 yards are usually better than my 2" Model 60/357Mag or 642/38+P at 7.
I do think if you carry the snubbies, you really need to practice with the hotter ammo, (at least the hottest you carry) be it reloads or factory if you want to stay proficient with them. Part of the problem there, at least for me is, I can usually only take about a 50 round box of these before my hand starts to complain. I really dont see practicing with wadcutters and then loading up on +P's, as the gun is a whole different critter with each.
One advantage to the autos is, you get a longer barrel in a gun thats about the same size as the snubbies. I get a LOT less blast and flash out of my 357SIG than I do out of my 357Mag, and no real loss in power due to the shorter barrel. That 1 1/2"+ additional barrel length helps a bit here. The autos also tend to fit my hand better, which makes shooting easier. I use standard stocks and a T grip on my revolvers as it helps keep them small and the grip itself feels better than anything else I've tried. I sometimes wonder what the makers are thinking when they deliver a compact revolver with oversize grips on them. Whats the point? Seems like it totally defeats the purpose.
For close range shooting, I dont think it much matters what you carry, as long as your comfortable with it. I tend to like the autos more, since capacity is generally more for a gun of about the same size. Either way, your grappling skills had better be up to par too.
I do think if you carry the snubbies, you really need to practice with the hotter ammo, (at least the hottest you carry) be it reloads or factory if you want to stay proficient with them. Part of the problem there, at least for me is, I can usually only take about a 50 round box of these before my hand starts to complain. I really dont see practicing with wadcutters and then loading up on +P's, as the gun is a whole different critter with each.
One advantage to the autos is, you get a longer barrel in a gun thats about the same size as the snubbies. I get a LOT less blast and flash out of my 357SIG than I do out of my 357Mag, and no real loss in power due to the shorter barrel. That 1 1/2"+ additional barrel length helps a bit here. The autos also tend to fit my hand better, which makes shooting easier. I use standard stocks and a T grip on my revolvers as it helps keep them small and the grip itself feels better than anything else I've tried. I sometimes wonder what the makers are thinking when they deliver a compact revolver with oversize grips on them. Whats the point? Seems like it totally defeats the purpose.
For close range shooting, I dont think it much matters what you carry, as long as your comfortable with it. I tend to like the autos more, since capacity is generally more for a gun of about the same size. Either way, your grappling skills had better be up to par too.
Ohioan
Member
I own a Kel-Tec P11. I rented and shot a Smith and Wesson 638 yesterday afternoon. (Yes it had a lock, no it didn't fail causing me to be hit by a meteor)
My hand still hurts from the 100 rnds of 130grn .38 special that I shot. It's just sore from the abuse. The cylinder release latch jumped up and bit my thumb when I was shooting one handed. After that, I readjusted my grip and didn't have a problem.
After shooting 100 rnds of 115g 9mm through my KT, my wrist become very sore. Something about the torque of the recoil causes my wrist to hurt extremely bad for quite a few days.
I like the 638 due to the shrouded hammer. It creates a snag free pocket carry pistol, that can be shot single action. In single action mode I was able to keep 5 rnds in one very large, ragged hole at 12 yrds. Double action, the pattern opened up a little. Then I shot one handed and I was all over the place. The double action trigger was very stiff.
The KT is a very well made weapon. I've added a Houge Jr. grip, a pinky extension for the mag, and a pencil eraser trigger stop. It's a lot more comfortable to shoot now, making it more accurate. I can keep all 10rnds in a mag inside a paper plate. But groups like I was shooting with the .38 are impossible for me. Pocket carry with the KT is out of the question for me. It's just too heavy and bulky.
I'm 5'11 and 160lbs. The KT patterns even in a IWB holster. The .38 hides a little better in the pocket for me.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to sell my KT set-up and buy a 638 or a Taurus 651.
My hand still hurts from the 100 rnds of 130grn .38 special that I shot. It's just sore from the abuse. The cylinder release latch jumped up and bit my thumb when I was shooting one handed. After that, I readjusted my grip and didn't have a problem.
After shooting 100 rnds of 115g 9mm through my KT, my wrist become very sore. Something about the torque of the recoil causes my wrist to hurt extremely bad for quite a few days.
I like the 638 due to the shrouded hammer. It creates a snag free pocket carry pistol, that can be shot single action. In single action mode I was able to keep 5 rnds in one very large, ragged hole at 12 yrds. Double action, the pattern opened up a little. Then I shot one handed and I was all over the place. The double action trigger was very stiff.
The KT is a very well made weapon. I've added a Houge Jr. grip, a pinky extension for the mag, and a pencil eraser trigger stop. It's a lot more comfortable to shoot now, making it more accurate. I can keep all 10rnds in a mag inside a paper plate. But groups like I was shooting with the .38 are impossible for me. Pocket carry with the KT is out of the question for me. It's just too heavy and bulky.
I'm 5'11 and 160lbs. The KT patterns even in a IWB holster. The .38 hides a little better in the pocket for me.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to sell my KT set-up and buy a 638 or a Taurus 651.
longeyes
member
For me the sub-compact semi-auto is much, much easier to shoot than a J-frame. I like the J-frame as a last resort, in-your-face pocket gun but it's not a gun I enjoy shooting, even if it makes a perfect BUG. For me it's strictly an ultra-close-range, point-blank weapon. I'll take a Glock 26 anyday.
My wife has a Ruger SP101 2.25 and I a Kahr MK9. 7-10 yards I can be comfortable with either shooting them about the same.
The SP101 with the Hogue grip does fit my hand a bit better than the two-fingered grip on short handled MK9 but it also, for me, seams to be a bit harder to hide. On the other hand my wife always has her fanny pack and hiding it is not a problem.
However, one point that’s an issue with my wife is racking the slide on the Kahr. Being that its a small auto pulling back the slide is a bit stout. With even a trace of hand lotion or sun tan lotion she can’t grip it tight enough to rack it without having it slip. So for her the revolver is hands down easier to shoot and control.
The SP101 with the Hogue grip does fit my hand a bit better than the two-fingered grip on short handled MK9 but it also, for me, seams to be a bit harder to hide. On the other hand my wife always has her fanny pack and hiding it is not a problem.
However, one point that’s an issue with my wife is racking the slide on the Kahr. Being that its a small auto pulling back the slide is a bit stout. With even a trace of hand lotion or sun tan lotion she can’t grip it tight enough to rack it without having it slip. So for her the revolver is hands down easier to shoot and control.
I suppose it depends on what would constitute a "tiny" auto and how one defines shooting well. I shoot my Smith 37 better than I shoot my Keltec P3AT or my Tomcat. But I can shoot my Glock 26 a lot better, that is faster and more accurately, than the model 37.
Here's a video of the 37 in action, stoked with 158 HP Lead SWC +P, drawn from an Aker IWB holster. Targets are Steel Challenge plates at 7 yards. Is it good enough? Who is to say?
Here's a video of the 37 in action, stoked with 158 HP Lead SWC +P, drawn from an Aker IWB holster. Targets are Steel Challenge plates at 7 yards. Is it good enough? Who is to say?
Ohioan
Member
As a additional note to my above post: my hand is STILL sore from that little j-frame... the pad under the thumb is really sore...
mjrodney
Member
When I first bought my S&W 638 J-frame, I took it to the range just to make sure it would fire.
It's a pocket gun, an up close and personal type of thing, so the ability to hit a distant target was not important to me.
In any case, out at the 25 yard line, I already had a couple of 5.5" reactive targets up on a yard square piece of cardboard, for use with a .22 target pistol and a 45 auto.
Before I began with the .22 or the .45, I thought I might just toss a few rounds down range with the new snubbie.
Hoping only to hit the cardboard somewhere, I was pleasantly surprised to see 3 out of 5 hit the reactive target I was aiming at, with the remaining 2 just outside the circle.
Although I don't own an auto smaller than the Sig P232 that the snub was augmenting, this quick test tells me that a J-frame offers enough grip to be reasonable for my hands. I wear an extra large glove size, if that tells you anything.
It's a pocket gun, an up close and personal type of thing, so the ability to hit a distant target was not important to me.
In any case, out at the 25 yard line, I already had a couple of 5.5" reactive targets up on a yard square piece of cardboard, for use with a .22 target pistol and a 45 auto.
Before I began with the .22 or the .45, I thought I might just toss a few rounds down range with the new snubbie.
Hoping only to hit the cardboard somewhere, I was pleasantly surprised to see 3 out of 5 hit the reactive target I was aiming at, with the remaining 2 just outside the circle.
Although I don't own an auto smaller than the Sig P232 that the snub was augmenting, this quick test tells me that a J-frame offers enough grip to be reasonable for my hands. I wear an extra large glove size, if that tells you anything.
Sniper X
Member
A auto, in any size, has the designed in ability to reduce felt recoil because of the way the slide comes back under recoil. A revolver does not. It is a rigid frame and as such has more felt recoil size for size and as a result is not as "easy" to shoot in any way. A small frame revolver takes more training to shoot rapidly and accurately then a small frame auto. But a small frame revolver has way less potential to jam as well so there are costs and benifits to both.
the naked prophet
Member
I do much much better with a small frame auto. For instance, my Kel-Tec P3AT at 7 yards:
With my taurus 85 .38 special, my group would be all over that target. At 7 yards, I can usually keep them within the circle, but beyond that, not so much. That's why my snub has been mostly retired for a BUG.
With my taurus 85 .38 special, my group would be all over that target. At 7 yards, I can usually keep them within the circle, but beyond that, not so much. That's why my snub has been mostly retired for a BUG.
Ohioan
Member
True, but I can get a much higher grip on the revolver than I can with any auto. This keeps the barrel in line with my arms, which causes the gun to recoil back into my arms and elbow and allowing me to have better control of the gun. When shooting, make sure you get the highest grip possible. (or so i've been told by lots of gun experts on TV.)
WeThePeople
Member
This is definitely an individual issue.
My wife loves the simplicity of a revolver, which makes her more comfortable, which makes her shoot better.
I simply prefer autos for the capacity and reload capability and can shoot just as well with either.
My wife loves the simplicity of a revolver, which makes her more comfortable, which makes her shoot better.
I simply prefer autos for the capacity and reload capability and can shoot just as well with either.
PaladinX13
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- 747
Under better circumstances, at the range or with a target at range, I think most people will say the auto shoots better for them... but here are some circumstances to consider:
Not saying a J-frame is inherently better, just that whatever platform you pick, you need to train accordingly. Whether it's to handle the kick and accuracy of the J-frame or the fast-draw firm hold and clearance drills with the auto.
This need is heightened by the fact that most pocket guns are overall unpleasant (compared to full-sized) to shoot and train with. That is, how often do people say, "I'll just put a mag or two through my P3AT every two sessions or so" which is disproportionate to the amount of time they spend carrying the same gun.
Anyways, in my case, I'm sure pocket autos make better range guns, but under the circumstances of a defensive shooting, I think I'd probably shoot a revolver better.
- Shooting under stress - Autos, especially pocket ones, can suffer jams due to limp-wristing.
- Shooting from the pocket - The revolver can without problem, but the auto might go out of battery or be jammed.
- Shooting for speed - I think most people can probably get a better handle on a J-frame grip more quickly than they can a pocket auto... your hand can ride higher on the gun with more to grip, resulting a faster draw.
- Shooting with malfunctions - Is just another pull of the trigger with a revolver but nearly always a two-hand affair with autos.
- Shooting for simplicity - If you're not carrying reloads (often the case with pocket carry), a revolver does not introduce the potential failures of magazines (accidentally released, feeding wrong, rim-lock, rattle, etc).
- Shooting under contact - Same as the pocket or stress issues, a bump, swipe, or nudge can put your auto out of battery and temporarily inoperative. Other than a ninja-like assailant grabbing your cylinder, a revolver will fire fine during contact.
Not saying a J-frame is inherently better, just that whatever platform you pick, you need to train accordingly. Whether it's to handle the kick and accuracy of the J-frame or the fast-draw firm hold and clearance drills with the auto.
This need is heightened by the fact that most pocket guns are overall unpleasant (compared to full-sized) to shoot and train with. That is, how often do people say, "I'll just put a mag or two through my P3AT every two sessions or so" which is disproportionate to the amount of time they spend carrying the same gun.
Anyways, in my case, I'm sure pocket autos make better range guns, but under the circumstances of a defensive shooting, I think I'd probably shoot a revolver better.
Ohioan
Member
This is my one handed target with S&W 638 J frame loaded with WWB 130g 38spl. Shot straight double action.
This is my two handed target both single and double action from the same weapon.
50 rounds to each target
Anyone know what that pattern means? I'm sure it'd put all the roads right in the center if I did my part.. but I'm pulling or pushing the pistol.. need practice i think....
This is my two handed target both single and double action from the same weapon.
50 rounds to each target
Anyone know what that pattern means? I'm sure it'd put all the roads right in the center if I did my part.. but I'm pulling or pushing the pistol.. need practice i think....
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In several years of competitions, I discovered that I shoot my K-L-N frame S&W revolvers best (double action) vs. my automatics. Reaction time 'til first shot with a Pact timer runs 3/10th of a second FASTER with the wheelguns . . . and that is significant (around .80 seconds vs. 1.15 seconds, from the "surrender position" til an accurate shot at a B-27 target @ 6 feet.) Thus . . . I'm almost 50% SLOWER drawing and shooting a 1911. Thats a HUGE difference in a fight.
However, the small, aluminum J-frames are a different beast, as is my aluminum frame Colt Agent snubbie. These ain't in the same accuracy ballpark at all!
My BUG is a little Keltec P-32, which ain't that accurate . . . DEFINATELY a close up, "Oh Sh__" type of weapon of last resort.
So . . . my favorite CCW gun is my original generation Kimber Ultra CDP .45 auto . . . an aluminum-framed, 3" barrelled auto that's been totally reliable and decently accurate with full house loads.
Here's a typical 10 yard, standing/unsupported target. Six rounds of Remington 230 gn. Golden Sabre:
Definately "close enough!"
However, the small, aluminum J-frames are a different beast, as is my aluminum frame Colt Agent snubbie. These ain't in the same accuracy ballpark at all!
My BUG is a little Keltec P-32, which ain't that accurate . . . DEFINATELY a close up, "Oh Sh__" type of weapon of last resort.
So . . . my favorite CCW gun is my original generation Kimber Ultra CDP .45 auto . . . an aluminum-framed, 3" barrelled auto that's been totally reliable and decently accurate with full house loads.
Here's a typical 10 yard, standing/unsupported target. Six rounds of Remington 230 gn. Golden Sabre:
Definately "close enough!"
Interesting comments on this. Most would say the small semi is easier to shoot. Why?
1. lighter trigger pull.
2. longer sight radius.
3. longer barrel in the same size package.
The snubbie has a heavier trigger pull, shorter sight radius, and shorter barrel (typically).
That's not to say a snubbie can't be shot accurately, because it can. It just takes more work and practice (which many are willing to put in for the perceived reliability of a small wheelgun).
Regards,
1. lighter trigger pull.
2. longer sight radius.
3. longer barrel in the same size package.
The snubbie has a heavier trigger pull, shorter sight radius, and shorter barrel (typically).
That's not to say a snubbie can't be shot accurately, because it can. It just takes more work and practice (which many are willing to put in for the perceived reliability of a small wheelgun).
Regards,
Depends on the round
I just returned from the range after wring out my Kimber Warrior with my Kimber .22 conversion kit for the first time. With the .22 rounds, I could really concentrate on the trigger and sight alignment - results were very satisfying.
A gentleman two points down let me try his Kimber Stainless II in 10mm with some medium 165gr handloads. Slightly sharper impulse than my 230 gr WWB rounds, but certainly manageable. Decent off-hand groups with the standard target sights and a crisp ~ 4lb trigger
Then I decided to try my Gemini Customs worked over 3" .357 SP-101 with CT grips and a 4 port comp in the barrel. The trigger has been worked to be a smooth 10lb DA and a crisp 4 lb SA. I purchased this as my wife's primary HD bedside gun and with 135gr Speer SBGD or 145gr Silvertips, the recoil is manageable and the rounds go where the laser dot is within the range she needs it to.
Today, I tried some American Eagle 158gr JSPs - ouch. If this were the only round (the fixed sights are regulated to 158gr at 7 yards) available for this gun, (a) I'd need to practice A LOT more to be proficient and (b) my wife would refuse to practice with it altogether. I shot the first 15 rounds looking for slow fire accuracy (SA only). Rounds 16-20 were rapid fire DA (a 4 inch group about 10" low). Correcting the sight picture, rounds 21-25 were around 4" COM. A scuffed thumb and a sore web of my shooting hand told me it was enough for the day. Thankfully, there are effective rounds that don't beat up the shooter to make it useful.
I just returned from the range after wring out my Kimber Warrior with my Kimber .22 conversion kit for the first time. With the .22 rounds, I could really concentrate on the trigger and sight alignment - results were very satisfying.
A gentleman two points down let me try his Kimber Stainless II in 10mm with some medium 165gr handloads. Slightly sharper impulse than my 230 gr WWB rounds, but certainly manageable. Decent off-hand groups with the standard target sights and a crisp ~ 4lb trigger
Then I decided to try my Gemini Customs worked over 3" .357 SP-101 with CT grips and a 4 port comp in the barrel. The trigger has been worked to be a smooth 10lb DA and a crisp 4 lb SA. I purchased this as my wife's primary HD bedside gun and with 135gr Speer SBGD or 145gr Silvertips, the recoil is manageable and the rounds go where the laser dot is within the range she needs it to.
Today, I tried some American Eagle 158gr JSPs - ouch. If this were the only round (the fixed sights are regulated to 158gr at 7 yards) available for this gun, (a) I'd need to practice A LOT more to be proficient and (b) my wife would refuse to practice with it altogether. I shot the first 15 rounds looking for slow fire accuracy (SA only). Rounds 16-20 were rapid fire DA (a 4 inch group about 10" low). Correcting the sight picture, rounds 21-25 were around 4" COM. A scuffed thumb and a sore web of my shooting hand told me it was enough for the day. Thankfully, there are effective rounds that don't beat up the shooter to make it useful.
I have never shot a sub-compact pistol... BUT, one thing that I read regularly regarding them.... reliability. Some claim the reliability to be the best in the world, others claim worst guns ever owned. One thing you will (probably) never read regarding the J-Frame is reliability problems. As many people stated earlier, if i can hit a pie plate at 7 yards consistantly (which happens to be where an overwhelming majority of gunfights take place (doubtful it will ever happen but knowledge is power), and that the majority of gunfights are less than 3 rounds....
I would take a J-frame for these reasons even if it was slightly more dificult to shoot.
I would take a J-frame for these reasons even if it was slightly more dificult to shoot.
SWMAN
Member
Well, if anyone can take a j frame (36) and using double action at 7 yards consistently hit where you aim, I salute you. I'll stick with a G26 or G30.
Baba Louie
Member
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Easier to shoot...
Hmmm.
Easier to shoot...
We talking range session? Slow fire? Rapid fire? Short duration of time shooting? Self Defense mode? 25 yd or closer or longer? Factoring in reloads? Or just shoot what you got?
Hmmm.
I like shooting the G26 or Colt Defender. Pretty easy staying on target shooting quick or slow. Short or longer ranging shots are quite easy with those two as well. Reloads? A snap. Nice to have the slide eating up some of the energy but does get a bit busy (if ya know what I mean) getting it back into alignment...
But then again, I really like shooting the S&W 60 as well. Full power magnum loads can be kinda "lively" and it's not as quick for me to get back on target for fast followup shots. And I do like the ability to load it down to .38 spl 110 gr wadcutters or go up the power scale, but I'm not whatcha call a speed reloader with it by any means.
With enough practice I can miss with either type pretty much the same. But I find I go through a whole lot more ammo when playing with either the baby Glock or little Pony for some reason (could be my hands don't tend to ache so much... I dunno).
Now if I had one of those 8 shot .357's that S&W have with adjustable sights... or a new 686 with the 2 1/2" barrel... oh yeah... small wheelguns.
Speaking of small... Wouldn't it be a hoot to have a snub barrel Bearcat? Easy AND fun.
Hmmm.
Easier to shoot...
We talking range session? Slow fire? Rapid fire? Short duration of time shooting? Self Defense mode? 25 yd or closer or longer? Factoring in reloads? Or just shoot what you got?
Hmmm.
I like shooting the G26 or Colt Defender. Pretty easy staying on target shooting quick or slow. Short or longer ranging shots are quite easy with those two as well. Reloads? A snap. Nice to have the slide eating up some of the energy but does get a bit busy (if ya know what I mean) getting it back into alignment...
But then again, I really like shooting the S&W 60 as well. Full power magnum loads can be kinda "lively" and it's not as quick for me to get back on target for fast followup shots. And I do like the ability to load it down to .38 spl 110 gr wadcutters or go up the power scale, but I'm not whatcha call a speed reloader with it by any means.
With enough practice I can miss with either type pretty much the same. But I find I go through a whole lot more ammo when playing with either the baby Glock or little Pony for some reason (could be my hands don't tend to ache so much... I dunno).
Now if I had one of those 8 shot .357's that S&W have with adjustable sights... or a new 686 with the 2 1/2" barrel... oh yeah... small wheelguns.
Speaking of small... Wouldn't it be a hoot to have a snub barrel Bearcat? Easy AND fun.
M2 Carbine
member
I don't consistently hit where I aim with any gun at any distance. :banghead:
I think many shooters have a couple large problems.
First they can't get enough range time and second they don't spend at least a little of their range time challenging themselves.
Personally I'm always looking for ways to make shooting more challenging (within the limits of my range). This not only makes the shooting more interesting but tends to keep my accuracy decent.
You can't shoot a small revolver or semi decent? Why not? That would irritate and challenge me until I could shoot the gun decent.
You can shoot at 7 yards OK?
Then it's time to spend some shooting time at 10 and 15 yards. Even if you think you won't have to shoot further than 7 yards (how can you be sure), shooting at the longer distance will make shooting close up easier.
Challenge yourself to get better. Don't be satisfied with how you are doing.
For instance.
Recently I've been shooting my Crimson Trace laser S&W J Frame a couple evenings a week.
I'm gotten pretty decent point shooting with the laser.
Weak hand, point shooting at 10 yards.
So last night I added a time restriction of 2 seconds a shot, starting with the gun pointed down before every shot, hammer down, single action.
I suppose this time and accuracy is fair for a first try (I have nothing to compare to) but now the challange is to reduce the time below a second without much loss of accuracy (good accuracy is the bottom line).
Whether or not I can reduce the time isn't as important as just trying.
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