Which powder for 95 gr bullet?

[egd]

I'm going to work up a load for a 95gr fmj bullet to shoot in my PCC with 14.5" barrel. I currently use 124 gr with WSF. I have a lot of WSF and 8 lbs of hp38 which I used to use. I'm just curious about trying that bullet weight.
What do you guys recommend, the faster hp38 or slower WSF? Thanks.
BTW, I'm using this for uspsa and steel challenge shooting, if that matters to anyone's answer.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm guessing you are talking about 9mm ammo but you don't say. I see nothing wrong t with either powder, load up 30 or so of each and go with the one which shows the best accuracy. That's the best I can suggest right now.

 

[egd]

Yeah, 9mm. The jug of hp38 is unopened. I just didn't want to open it unless I really was going to use it. I may want to sell or trade it later.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I would use the HP-38 for bullets that light, I honestly use WST for 100gr bullets in 9mm, works fine and still burns pretty clean. But that's not one of your choices so of the two you have I would use the HP-38. The faster powders just seem to work better with the lighter bullets and lighter loads.

 

[JJFitch]

A general rule of thumb for at least 40 years: "lighter bullet faster powder, heavier bullet slower powder"

I'd use the W231/hp38, it is an excellent 9mm powder at factory velocities!

Smles,

 

[Dudedog]

I would give the WSF a try since it's open
Warning not listed load data
"USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. "
Not a listed load but I worked this up. (a 90 not a 95) No pressure signs and could probably go a bit heavier charge wise.
Very mixed range brass, S+B SP , 5" 9mm 1911
Charges as thrown after setting measure
String: 2
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 2:48:30 PM
Grains: 90
Hi Vel: 1386
Low Vel: 1308
Ave Vel: 1352
Ext Spread: 78
Std Dev: 33
Sierra 90 1.05 5.9 WSF
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1386 124.74 383.858
1383 124.47 382.198
1308 117.72 341.869 this one trashed my SD and ES, maybe thrown charge was a bit light
1350 121.5 364.176
1334 120.06 355.595 The last two didn't held ES/SD either (first two were close)

I really should redo this with same headstamp brass and weighed charges
All of it shot well however.

Edit
WSF charge for a 115 ~20% heavier bullet than a 95
115 GR. JHP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 5.2 1095 28,700 PSI 5.7 1165 32,100 PSI
Start 5.2 MAX 5.7
WSF for a 124 ~10% heavier bullet than a 115
125 FMJ Winchester WSF 0.355 1.16 4.7 1015 27,700 PSI 5.3 1115 32,700 PSI
Start 4.7 MAX 5.3
WSF for a 147
147 GR. FMJ Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 3.9 895 28,400 PSI 4.3 950 32,300 PSI
Start 3.9 MAX 4.3
Warning not listed load data
(looking at other powders and using applied guestimation I would guess the MAX with a 90 and WSF somewhere around 6.1)

 

[egd]

Thanks Dudedog. That's good info. I will try the WSF first since it's open.

JJ, I thought I had heard something like that before, but wasn't sure. That's why I made this thread.

 

[Walkalong]

Max charge of 3N37. Lots of fun, like @Dudedog ,s load, speedy.

No reason you can’t load them light for fun though, using something like WST, Sport Pistol, N320, etc

 

[LiveLife]

95gr fmj ... PCC ... 14.5" barrel. I currently use 124 gr with WSF ... 8 lbs of hp38

What do you guys recommend, the faster hp38 or slower WSF? uspsa and steel challenge shooting, if that matters

If you didn't shoot matches, it won't matter much other than slight reduction in accuracy and increased soot on cases.

using [faster burning powders] like WST, Sport Pistol, N320, etc

But since you are shooting matches, it will matter as for one, there is no published load data from Hodgdon for 9mm 95 gr bullet and WSF (There is for W231/HP-38) and if your PCC is blowback, then you will benefit from faster burning W231/HP-38 sealing the case neck with chamber better before bolt/buffer move back from recoil.

When I started loading for my PCCs with blowback action, I noticed more black soot on cases with slower burning powders or lower powder charges. To me, black soot on case means less efficient powder burn and inadequate case neck seal with chamber (Or in blowback PCC case, bolt/buffer moving back too soon). To increase "dwell" time (Time bolt/buffer stays forward with chamber) and reduce harsh recoil, AR based PCCs running carbine length spring use heavier buffer weight of H3 (5.4 oz) to produce combined bolt/buffer weight of 19-22 oz or heavier - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...es-and-what-parts-did-you-use-and-why.825314/

3-gun match shooters even use heavier 7 oz buffer weight and stiffer .308 recoil spring to increase dwell time and reduce recoil but cycling would get sluggish and greater bolt/buffer mass moving stiffer .308 recoil spring would pull front sight off the target more to slow down getting front sight back on target (And for USPSA, stage scoring favors faster times).

So I would suggest faster burning W231/HP-38 for your PCC load but you really should do range test comparison to see which powder load you shoot better and faster. And to knock down steel USPSA targets and engage longer distance targets out to 100 yards (Think bullet drop), you may need higher power factor loads than 135, especially with 95 gr bullet so that's something you need to test also.

But as you move up in power factor with faster burning powders, recoil may become more snappy with greater sight pull off target and I suggest using adjustable buffer/short stroke system like Taccom to tune your recoil - https://taccom3g.com/product/taccom-pcc-adjustable-buffer-system/

There's a thread discussion on transonic effect on bullet vs other reloading/shooting variables you may benefit from but with 95 gr bullet out of your 14.5" barrel, velocity should be higher than 1300-1400 fps so you likely won't need to worry about going transonic - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-115gr-velocity-and-accuracy.873960/#post-11618517

After seeing heavy soot on cases and less than desirable accuracy (For me) with relatively slower powders to BE-86, I tested faster powders than W231/HP-38 and found Promo (Which is fast burning close to Red Dot/Bullseye in burn rate) to produce least amount of soot on case with smaller groups.

These are my best groups from various loads tested at 50 yards and this post shows a partial list of chrono data with lighter 100 gr loads producing less bullet drop/group scatter - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-4#post-10338994

And best 100 yard group (So far)

And with recent testing of RMR 95 gr FMJ (50 yard shooting spot was taken on range day and 45 yard was best I could do) with member requested comparison testing of 1:10 PSA barrel with 1:16 JR barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-4#post-11387109

 

[Dudedog]

Looks like you will need about 1330 with a 95 to make PF- 1370 or a bit more to be safe, depends on how much wiggle room you want (if you are concerned about PF)
WSF is reverse tempature sensitive, vels go down as temp goes up, so if you work up when its cold you may be low when its hot.
(plastic bag in an ice chest can make things cold for testing, car heater can warm ammo up, if you want to check vel vs temp, it's normally 100+ in the summer where I am so warming things up is not an issue in the summer!)
So you may need something a bit slower burn speed than HP38/W231, but I don't know how much vel you will gain with the longer barrel
Hodgdon data for HP38
95 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.020" 4.8 1189 26,300 CUP 5.3 1273 31,400 CUP
So with listed data in a shorter barrel HP38 at MAX leaves you about 100 fps from where you need to be.

PF(with 95) Vel
125.4 1320
126.35 1330
127.3 1340
128.25 1350
129.2 1360
130.15 1370
131.1 1380
132.05 1390
133 1400
133.95 1410
134.9 1420
135.85 1430


If you use WSF I would be interested toi see what kind of vels you get out of the longer barrel.

 

[egd]

It might be a couple of weeks before I test them both out. I'll start with the WSF first. I fired a couple of my mouse fart loads usually shot in my bug gun and the dot did not move at all, but I know they won't make PF. I'll report back with findings.

 

[LiveLife]

I don't know how much vel you will gain with the longer barrel

Carbine barrels will usually add around 100 fps, up to 120-150+ fps depending on length of barrel and powder burn rate. With OP's 14.5" barrel, I am thinking 100+ fps gain over pistol barrels. (Higher velocity gain for slower burning WSF compared to faster burning W231/HP-38).

Due to blowback action shedding gas, I have been loading my carbine loads at near max load data to optimize accuracy and depending on powder used, in my 16"/17" barrels, I am seeing additional 120-150 fps.

But for match shooting, upmost/optimal accuracy load with higher recoil/kick impulse that will move the front sight/red dot more may not be beneficial. So until OP gets really competitive to matter, perhaps a better approach is to identify the load that will reliably operate the action and produce most comfortable recoil impulse. So I would suggest starting out with 135 PF loads (Especially for light 95 gr bullet) and compare with 140-145 PF loads (Does OP plan on shooting heavier 115/124/147 gr bullet?) as many 3-gun match shooters, depending on bullet weight/powder, are loading carbine loads upwards of 145 PF and using adjustable buffer/short stroke to reduce front sight/red dot jumping.

Like what I have found, many match shooters have transitioned from heavier 147 gr bullet to lighter 115/100/95 gr bullets for carbine load to increase muzzle velocity for less bullet drop over longer distance targets (flatter shooting) to produce smaller groups.

Ultimately, it will be up to OP's equipment and shooting style that will dictate which load will work better to produce faster stage times (And match load that will move the front sight less will allow higher stage score) so contrary to our usual objective of going after the "most accurate load", for OP it will be "faster match load" that meets power factor requirement. And only range test with a timer will determine that.

WSF ... mouse fart loads usually shot in my bug gun and the dot did not move at all, but I know they won't make PF. I'll report back with findings.

Look forward to your range report.

 

[egd]

Yeah, top accuracy is not the goal, just acceptable accuracy coupled with least dot bounce. I already shoot 124 gr and it works well, but, you know, were always chasing that 'what if'. Since I already shoot 124 moving down to 115 doesn't seem like a big enough difference to bother with, but 95, that may make a difference. We'll see.

 

[LiveLife]

Since I already shoot 124 moving down to 115 doesn't seem like a big enough difference to bother with, but 95, that may make a difference. We'll see.

I have a feeling 95 gr loaded to 135 PF will shoot flatter and make the front sight/red dot move less than your 124 gr load.

And my vote is W231/HP-38 loaded to 135 PF producing greater group consistency over WSF loaded to 135 PF.

BTW, how is your PCC set up regarding bolt/buffer weight and spring rate (Asking for another THR member thinking about shooting 3-gun and helping with PCC build and carbine load development).

 

[egd]

I got ambitious and loaded up just a few of the 95s with 5.9 gr of wsf and ran out to the range. They were too hot at 1620 avg. fps. I'm going to try some at 5.6 gr and see how that does. My goal is 1400 fps. avg. As for accuracy, 5 shots made a quarter size hole at 20 yds.
My gun is a JP with 14.5 barrel and comp. I have the short stroke silent capture spring system with 5 steel weights. Although there are other guns out there that are maybe just as good, my JP just flat out runs. No problems. I don't know much about buffer weights and all that. This is my second pcc. My first was a factory colt 6951. It ran well too, but the glock mag system is just so much better for reloads and cheaper mags. I've never messed with building guns.

 

[Dudedog]

My normal match load is a 124 RMR MPR with 4.4 or 4.5 gr of WSF. (low end of the charge range)
I have found WSF is happy for lower middle-mid range stuff.
5.9 with a 95 is probably pretty close to or at MAX.
When you say to hot do you mean more vel than you wanted or did you get flattened primers/other pressure signs?

Don't know how far it is for you to test but I would be tempted to load some at 5.2, 5.4 as well.
Guessing around 5.3 should be about 1400 (pure guess)

This may or may not be helpful but this was a mousefart load-gives you a low side to compare with the 5.9 high side (note 5.9 load was a 90 not a 100)
S+B SP mixed range brass, charges as thrown after setting measure 5" 9mm 1911
String: 3
Date: 7/23/2016
Time: 8:26:15 AM
Grains: 100
Hi Vel: 1058
Low Vel: 990
Ave Vel: 1024
Ext Spread: 68
Std Dev: 25
Xtreme 100 4.3 WSF 1.045 OAl
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1058 105.8 248.527
1040 104 240.142
1022 102.2 231.901
1013 101.3 227.835
990 99 217.607

 

[egd]

By too hot I mean too much velocity.
My normal match load is the RMR in house FMJ RN at ~1.120 with 4.2 gr of WSF.
Since using these RMR 95 gr in my bug gun, which you helped me with a while back, I've been curious how they'd do in the pcc.

 

[Dudedog]

My normal match load is the RMR in house FMJ RN at ~1.120 with 4.2 gr of WSF.

And I thought I was the only crazy person using WSF for match loads
To me it just feels softer than faster burning powders-less snappy.

 

[Dudedog]

Sounds like the 5.9 load was accurate, hopefully accuracy holds when you back off a bit.

Since using these RMR 95 gr in my bug gun, which you helped me with a while back

Getting senile, forgot about that until you mentioned it.

 

[egd]

I tried 5.6 today, still too much velocity, about 1550 avg, I'm going to try 5.0 tomorrow.

 

[Walkalong]

I wish I could say I have never done that (Start too high), but I have, recently.

Dropping to 5.0 is a good call.

 

[LiveLife]

I tried 5.6 today, still too much velocity, about 1550 avg, I'm going to try 5.0 tomorrow.

I wish I could say I have never done that (Start too high), but I have, recently.

egd is just doing a powder "work down" instead of "work up".

That's all.

 

[egd]

OK, results of the 5.0 load were 1405 avg. speed for a 133 PF. Right where I wanted it. Next step is to load up a fairly big batch and shoot them along side of my normal 124 gr bullet loads to compare for recoil feel and dot bounce. Stay tuned.

 

[LiveLife]

5.0 load were 1405 avg. speed for a 133 PF

5.0 gr of WSF is essentially start charge for both Hodgdon and Speer load data for 115 gr FMJ/TMJ bullets.

Could you consider loading up 5.3 gr of HP-38 for 95 gr FMJ as another comparison load? (For my 17" JR carbine, 5.5 gr and 100 gr TP RN produced smaller 50 yard groups than 115/124 gr bullets) https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/which-powder-for-95-gr-bullet.873937/#post-11618837

95s with 5.9 gr of wsf ... 1620 avg. fps ... 5 shots made a quarter size hole at 20 yds

I think to verify accuracy of carbine loads, they really should be tested at 50 yards as most of my 25 yard 10 shot groups out of my PCCs essentially produce single hole clusters.

 

[egd]

I think I will try out the hp-38 later, although I hate to open a sealed 8# jug just for that. But first I want to get the wsf load tested against my normal 124 load. I need to load up about 50 or so and do a comparison shoot to see if I can tell a difference. It will probably be very subjective, but the fun is in the trying after all.
Accuracy is kinda secondary as long as it's acceptable for the gun games. I would think almost any load would fit that bill though.

ETA- I just thought, my buddy shoots 231/hp38. I'll borrow a little from him to play with and I won't have to open that new jug.