Which Semi-auto Defense rifle?

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What would an M1 Garand have on a modern hunting rifle in a 30-06? I have a Remington 700 30-06? Of course, mine is bolt action, but absent that, would the Garand be better....and why? I only paid $240 for my Remington.
For short range...most people still recommending .223? Will the new 6.8 become popular....and be a better choice?
Click to expand...

For over 200 yards, you aren't going to get much benefit with a Garand - in fact, you'll probably be better off with the 700, especially if you are familiar with the gun and can work the bolt fast. True, you can load the Garand with clips, but the 700 is pretty easy to load from the top anyway.

You can buy/build a .223 AR now and buy a 6.8 upper when/if the 6.8 becomes the standard military round. Note that although people rag on the .223, it is still plenty powerful enough for short range work (under 200 yards).
 
Rebar: "With that in mind, I chose the mini-14. At 100 feet and under it's plenty accurate enough, reliable, and if it's confiscated I'm not out all that much money."

Yep. Not to hijack the thread, but I agree, that's why I've got an SKS. But really, 100ft is only, what 33.3 yds or so? Yet another reason I like my shotgun loaded with buckshot for home defense. I don't think it can be beat as a home defense weapon. It's cheap, you don't have to aim it with any real effort, and a walnut stocked pump shotgun shown to a jury doesn't look quite as "evil" as a tricked out AR with lights and lasers all over it, or even my SKS with the bayonet, or my WASR. If there's trouble on the homefront, I'm reaching for my shotgun and my 1911, in that order.
 
Garand can do up close work (fast reloading, faster shooting, skull busting capable and bayonet ready) and reasonable distance/ good penetration. No comparison to a 700 which is more of a specialty weapon. Both good, just different uses.
 
Self defense is reaslistically at "across your house" distances, 0 - 20 yards. Longer than that and you're likely going to jail.

A simple iron-sighted 16" AR15 kept safe but accessible will do the job well.

If you live out in the country and want to dispatch predators, it makes sense to have an intermediate range-appropriate optic mounted like an ACOG.

-z
 
Thanks for input....but..

Many have been preoccupied with my incarceration possibilities. I'm not planning on shooting a burglar or the like at 300 yards. Also..to be really technical...if it is only for defense and most defense would be within 20 yards...then a shotgun is far better. I want a semi-auto for "just in case"...but I also want it to serve multiple purposes. I like my guns to be versatile and not so specialized. That is one reason I shoot the 30-06. Versatile round that is plentiful. You can always find a buddy from whom you can borrow ammo.
To put it simple: I want an effective close range defensive rifle that has capability of long range shots (relatively long) as well. Let me worry about the politics/legalities of it. :) Besides...I do know something about those issues.
 
Since price is entered into the equation, for $600, you could buy 2 SKS's and several thousand rounds of ammo.... it ought to do everything you need to do defensively....
 
Self defense?

If you shoot someone 100+ yards away, you're going to go to jail, plain and simple. At 100 feet, you're still most likely going to jail. Even if you're not charged or get through the trial, you're most likely never going to see that rifle again.

With that in mind, I chose the mini-14. At 100 feet and under it's plenty accurate enough, reliable, and if it's confiscated I'm not out all that much money.
END QUOTE

Sorry but your way off base. Where did you go to law school? Your threat determines where you can shoot from. If he has a knife and he is 21 feet away I am shooting. If he has a gun and is shooting at me or attempting to shoot at me I am shooting him no matter what the distance. No cop would arrest you for defending yourself from an armed man at 100 feet or yards.

SNIP
Also..to be really technical...if it is only for defense and most defense would be within 20 yards...then a shotgun is far better
END QUOTE

Well thats an opinion but certainly not fact. I would much rather have a 223 semi auto. Its safer to use in the home than handguns and most shotgun loads. Its precise I don't have to worry about stray pellets. It has good stopping power. Low recoil and plenty of ammo.

SNIP
you don't have to aim it with any real effort
END QUOTE

This is a huge myth. A shot guns patern at across the room distances is about the size of a fist. You have to shoot it just like a rifle. Its not like shooting skeet.

Pat
 
Problem with .223 auto in a home defense situation.....You had better tell your neighbors to duck before you fire. Sheet rock and siding do not provide much protection.
I refer you back to my last post.....regarding the legalities and politics. I Appreciate the concern.
 
My home defense rifle is a Mini 14, I also have a Mossberg stashed in the basement. I am planning to purchase a Kel-Tect SU16 to keep in my trunk. I am going to fold it up and put it in a jumper cable bag and use if for SHTF scenarios. While I am really looking forward to having an AR someday, I am plenty happy with my Mini 14.
 
For in-home defense, I vote for a Ruger 10/22 carbine. Not much of a chance of over-penetration, and you still have the precision of a rifle for those hostage stand-off situations. Stopping power might be an issue, but then again, at close range, any bullet to the head or heart is going to work just fine (and 10 rounds are better 1).

:p

Of course if the redcoats, blue helmets, mutant zombie vampires, or the like are storming my castle, I'd probably want something a little bigger. In those sorts of situations, I'd vote for an SKS ('cause you get a whole lot for not much money).
 
The main advantage of the AR guns is the accessories, there's more accessories than for any other similar gun, but accessories cost money.
....
For a long time the Mini-14's claim to fame used to be that it was the cheapest 223 semiauto available--but now that there are cheap 223-cal AK-variants around, the mini is a pretty tough sale to make. I owned one in the past, it functioned just fine and was priced less than the AR, but it wasn't as accurate as I'd hoped and fixing that (putting a match barrel in) would have pushed its total cost outlay and accuracy about to what an AR would have been anyway.
....
So I say, if you want a nice spacegun you can customize, get an AR. If you want a cheap gun with no accessories, get a 223-cal SKS: it can do the close-range-SD business very well, most certainly.... but barring any drastic improvements in its (re-tooled) accuracy, there's very little argument in favor of the Mini-14. They might as well re-chamber it in .480 Ruger.
~
 
Problem with .223 auto in a home defense situation.....You had better tell your neighbors to duck before you fire. Sheet rock and siding do not provide much protection.
I refer you back to my last post.....regarding the legalities and politics. I Appreciate the concern.
END QUOTE

Sorry but thats false. 223's are safer in the home than your handguns.

Read this.
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results
Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
 
EAA was listing one of their Saiga guns in 223.
Remington bought out the import rights to some of EAA's guns and will sell those in the US under the Spartan brand name, and it is not yet known what fate awaits the others.
~
 
Whatever you buy, don't buy a Romanian WASR - 10. I have had nothing but trouble with mine. It will not fire a complete 30 rd. mag. without jamming at least once or twice, consistantly! These were originally 10 shot single stack Ak type weapons that have been converted to accept hi-capacity mags. Century made them more appealing by adding the bayonet lug and muzzle break. That did NOTHING to make them function proper. Buy an AK that was designed to use hi-cap mags, NOT the altered piece of junk WASR-10!
 
My milled receiver bulgarian AK47 is capable of at least as much accuracy as your average AR15. I paid about 550 for it. Hitting stuff beyond 300 yards is iffy. Hitting stuff with an AR15 at longer ranges is more likely, but you are less likely to inflict a serious wound. For real long range utility, I would recommend a FAL or somethign similar in 308. It wont be a "super fast rapid fire" type gun due to the recoil, but it will be incredibly effective to take aimed shots with. Assuming you can get an accurate gun that was well assembled, you should be able to reach out and touch stuff to 800 yards with such a rifle.

In summation:
If 300 yards is enough, I would go with one of the nicer AKs in 7.62x39. There will be much worse bullet drop than the M16, but it doesnt get really bad till like 350 yards.
If you need more reach, get a FAL/CETME/G3 in 308 or 3006. A dragunov or saigunov wouldnt be bad either. In any case, I dont have much faith in the assault rifle rounds to do real long range work- you need a real caliber. The 308 saigas, if they can be fitted to work with FAL mags would be a great battle rifle. Reliability of an AK with the meaty round of the FAL.

edit: this is seriously for self defense? Just get a saiga 12 gauge with a few extra mags. It will kill stuff out to 30 yards and be useful against rabid animals, clays, birds, etc. It goes through drywall, but much less than everythign else. Just avoid using slugs (penetrate more than anything else) and larger size buckshot if you are sensitive about overpenetration.

if you absolutely must have a rifle, I would recommend AK47 with ulyanovsk hollow points, since they are the only ones I know expand. Anythign else will penetrate too much.
 
Doug,

Saigas aren't the same as the SKS. Saigas are based on the AK-47 design, infact it is an AK. The SKS is different. Also, the SKS is available only in 7.62x39.

I.G.B.
 
Yugo SKS

Quick to load (stripper clips), enough power, and while it might not shoot MOA groups I'm pretty sure I can hit a man-sized target consistently at 200 yards. And, it's equally effective at 0 yards, with the bayonet fixed, if it comes to that.
 
And, it's equally effective at 0 yards, with the bayonet fixed, if it comes to that.
Click to expand...
I always thought that having the bayo extended/fixed, etc would give ya a chance fend off 1 or 2 guys while ya reloaded.. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
Armalite AR-180B is also a good option if you want something cheaper than an AR-15.

My mini-14 Ranch Rifle groups into 5.5" at 100 yards from a bench, starting from a cold barrel.
 
Hey Northslope Nimrod...

...I have a few of the above mentioned rifles...a 30.06 M1 Garand (1944), a Remington 700 BDL in 7mm Rem Mag, a Mossberg 500 for home defense, and an Olympic Arms AR15 M4 in .223. All you need to do is determine what your application need is...I've taken a few deer with the Remmy, went hunting with the Garand once, didn't see a deer all weekend...and can easily hit what I aim at within 100 yards with the M4... Hope I never need to use the Mossberg for home defense...but it's a warm and fuzzy feelin' knowing it's there... :evil:
 
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