Dave,
As far as winning or losing an argument with you, I really could care less. It doesn't mean anything really. The fact that you pointed that out indicates that you have a "win or lose" attitude in this whole debate, than a factual view.
You apparently only see it one way and refuse to look at the "working's" of the machine in comparison to the other's that it's pitted against, as being operationally different.
You call it a turret because the company does (safe bet), even though it has automatic indexing, so therefore, you can compare it to the older turrets, because of the name alone, and of which, are manually indexed, so the Lee is given a distinct, but false marketing edge.
When you're called on this difference, you say, "well, the company call's it that, so who am I to say different ?" Wearing blinder's to that fact because you like, or prefer the Lee, isn't a very objective assessment. The companies naming of the product makes that so, regardless of it's factual mechanical difference.
This was where I humorously brought up the washing machine comment (figuring you'd get it).....in other words, if they called it a washing machine would you also agree with that......
Obviously you only see it one way and you refuse to accept any fact's other than your own "pro-Lee" views.
I can honestly and evenly assess any piece of equipment in "any color", and I've done it for more years that you'll ever understand...... I currently still do, so my opinions aren't based on "antiquated views".
I'm not trying to belittle you because I'm losing an argument either. I tried to interject a little humor & sarcasm to keep it "light", but you apparently feel personally attacked.....and that's unfortunate.
I gotta state that you appear to be a knowledgeable and conscientious reloader, aside from the fact that we don't agree on this issue.
As far as time with the Classic Turret, I recently used one, and I said that back sometime ago in this thread, if you had paid attention. I know how it works, and how it functions. I loaded well over a thousand rounds on a friend's machine helping him set it up (and no it wasn't the one with the primer problem).
Like I said before, nice machine for the money....yes.
As far as the single stage Classic, I examined the linkage at my supplier.......no different than any other heavy single stage......not good or bad really....just cheaper I guess. $60-$70 as opposed to $110-$120. Their new single stage wasn't the issue.
For what I need The Redding UltraMag (more expensive, yes) is far better. It doesn't flex the frame, as the linkage points are all oriented to the same point of pressure, meaning the linkage takes the pressure directly to the die body, rather than the press frame itself.....absolutely the strongest single stage press on the market....
By the way, your reference of "swaging" (as it was written) appeared to actually be sizing, which any press can do. Swaging brass, as in "case forming" (forming wildcat cases, etc.), or swaging bullets, takes far more pressure than sizing alone. A press' frame & linkage are both put to the test when doing this.
You try to keep everything very professional, analytical and investigative sounding when it comes to the Lee, but then you use "slanted terms" like "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweights", when it comes to a reference to other brands.
That definitely "tips your hand" when it comes to "brand loyalty", and it's very obvious regarding your "unbiased opinion" involving an "even & fair" assessment of all involved.
Statements like "The Lee still "smokes the older turrets" in every category "......, or;
.....Yes, the answer does remain the same.......,
Even though you've had both machines, you still fail to see their obvious mechanical differences.
This means you either realize the differences of the two, but to benefit your particular choice of the Lee Turret, you refuse to acknowledge a difference exists, or doubtfully, you can't understand the general mechanical differences between them.
I can't believe that it'd be the latter of the two, so the first option sounds more plausible.
Using your terminology Dave, "that would be like comparing the Model T to the horse & buggy"....and in affect, that is exactly what they're doing to make their machine sound so good to the general crowd.
The Lee Turret, like I said, is more fairly and "honestly" compared to the Dillon, than the old turret presses, Once they added an auto-indexing feature, this changed the comparison entirely.
If you can understand that, or refuse to, then that is your obvious choice to ignore it, but it's not correct......and wreaks of "brand bias".
Now, who's getting personal Dave ?
Because I mentioned I was a retired cop, that's the way I supposedly think and act, huh ? Man, you're good Dave, you can tell all that from a lively reloading equipment debate.....WOW, you're special.
For your information, I never called a suspect, or person, a "perp"....that's TV Dave.
Regardless of their suspected guilt, or innocence, I treated most folks with respect....you don't put in 20 yrs, and treat folks that way. Those "types" are culled usually very early on.
Well, since you used that reference, I was far more than just a cop, and if you spent any time over at "Handloads.com", reading, you'd know that much. One reason I'm retired at an early age wasn't by choice, and was after sustaining a critical injury "in the public service". I'll leave it at that.
Since you make "lite" of the police end of my life, and since you sound educated, like your son, probably attending some college, and respect credentials........how many college instructors, or professor's do you know that teach (and have taught) at colleges, but have never attended college, and only have a high school education ?
The short answer is "not many, if any"....
I worked far harder than you can even imagine, there Dave, so I'm "relatively informed" when it comes to things regarding guns & ammo, or the making thereof. Not a "know it all" by any means though......always learning.
Many of my teaching courses (local college police courses) surrounded ballistics, and cartridge nomenclature, etc., and this was all self-taught......apparently the FBI thought is was good enough to certify me when it came to that. Out of the 20 yrs. I served, I was a Firearms Inst./Armorer for more than 16 yrs., and I was a Sniper/Observer on the ERT Unit for better than 8, also certified by the FBI.
This is not to mention that I worked directly with Winchester, Remington, S&W, Glock, Speer & Federal, as well as the NYSP Firearms Unit, in firearms & ammunition testing. I can easily prove what I claim....
The pressure on me to prove myself and what I had learned over my lifetime was tremendous, but I passed muster, to their satisfaction.....so, although no one's perfect.......I'm not totally off on the subject.
Regarding the correlation of the two issues, there isn't much other than the fact that I'm not new to it all there my friend......and I wasn't just a simple "Barney Fife flatfoot".......
Hopefully, if you ever need saving from a situation, you'll have a little more respect for those that serve & protect you.
The difference between the two machines are "night & day"
obvious. If Lee has gained customer's in their comparison of the Classic Turret to the T-Mag, or other presses of the like, then they have gained on false premise.
Bottom line..........it's not a win or lose situation, and never was.....you either believe it & buy it, or you don't...simple math....
Bob
As far as winning or losing an argument with you, I really could care less. It doesn't mean anything really. The fact that you pointed that out indicates that you have a "win or lose" attitude in this whole debate, than a factual view.
You apparently only see it one way and refuse to look at the "working's" of the machine in comparison to the other's that it's pitted against, as being operationally different.
You call it a turret because the company does (safe bet), even though it has automatic indexing, so therefore, you can compare it to the older turrets, because of the name alone, and of which, are manually indexed, so the Lee is given a distinct, but false marketing edge.
When you're called on this difference, you say, "well, the company call's it that, so who am I to say different ?" Wearing blinder's to that fact because you like, or prefer the Lee, isn't a very objective assessment. The companies naming of the product makes that so, regardless of it's factual mechanical difference.
This was where I humorously brought up the washing machine comment (figuring you'd get it).....in other words, if they called it a washing machine would you also agree with that......
Obviously you only see it one way and you refuse to accept any fact's other than your own "pro-Lee" views.
I can honestly and evenly assess any piece of equipment in "any color", and I've done it for more years that you'll ever understand...... I currently still do, so my opinions aren't based on "antiquated views".
I'm not trying to belittle you because I'm losing an argument either. I tried to interject a little humor & sarcasm to keep it "light", but you apparently feel personally attacked.....and that's unfortunate.
I gotta state that you appear to be a knowledgeable and conscientious reloader, aside from the fact that we don't agree on this issue.
As far as time with the Classic Turret, I recently used one, and I said that back sometime ago in this thread, if you had paid attention. I know how it works, and how it functions. I loaded well over a thousand rounds on a friend's machine helping him set it up (and no it wasn't the one with the primer problem).
Like I said before, nice machine for the money....yes.
As far as the single stage Classic, I examined the linkage at my supplier.......no different than any other heavy single stage......not good or bad really....just cheaper I guess. $60-$70 as opposed to $110-$120. Their new single stage wasn't the issue.
For what I need The Redding UltraMag (more expensive, yes) is far better. It doesn't flex the frame, as the linkage points are all oriented to the same point of pressure, meaning the linkage takes the pressure directly to the die body, rather than the press frame itself.....absolutely the strongest single stage press on the market....
By the way, your reference of "swaging" (as it was written) appeared to actually be sizing, which any press can do. Swaging brass, as in "case forming" (forming wildcat cases, etc.), or swaging bullets, takes far more pressure than sizing alone. A press' frame & linkage are both put to the test when doing this.
You try to keep everything very professional, analytical and investigative sounding when it comes to the Lee, but then you use "slanted terms" like "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweights", when it comes to a reference to other brands.
That definitely "tips your hand" when it comes to "brand loyalty", and it's very obvious regarding your "unbiased opinion" involving an "even & fair" assessment of all involved.
Statements like "The Lee still "smokes the older turrets" in every category "......, or;
.....Yes, the answer does remain the same.......,
Even though you've had both machines, you still fail to see their obvious mechanical differences.
This means you either realize the differences of the two, but to benefit your particular choice of the Lee Turret, you refuse to acknowledge a difference exists, or doubtfully, you can't understand the general mechanical differences between them.
I can't believe that it'd be the latter of the two, so the first option sounds more plausible.
Using your terminology Dave, "that would be like comparing the Model T to the horse & buggy"....and in affect, that is exactly what they're doing to make their machine sound so good to the general crowd.
The Lee Turret, like I said, is more fairly and "honestly" compared to the Dillon, than the old turret presses, Once they added an auto-indexing feature, this changed the comparison entirely.
If you can understand that, or refuse to, then that is your obvious choice to ignore it, but it's not correct......and wreaks of "brand bias".
Now, who's getting personal Dave ?
Because I mentioned I was a retired cop, that's the way I supposedly think and act, huh ? Man, you're good Dave, you can tell all that from a lively reloading equipment debate.....WOW, you're special.
For your information, I never called a suspect, or person, a "perp"....that's TV Dave.
Regardless of their suspected guilt, or innocence, I treated most folks with respect....you don't put in 20 yrs, and treat folks that way. Those "types" are culled usually very early on.
Well, since you used that reference, I was far more than just a cop, and if you spent any time over at "Handloads.com", reading, you'd know that much. One reason I'm retired at an early age wasn't by choice, and was after sustaining a critical injury "in the public service". I'll leave it at that.
Since you make "lite" of the police end of my life, and since you sound educated, like your son, probably attending some college, and respect credentials........how many college instructors, or professor's do you know that teach (and have taught) at colleges, but have never attended college, and only have a high school education ?
The short answer is "not many, if any"....
I worked far harder than you can even imagine, there Dave, so I'm "relatively informed" when it comes to things regarding guns & ammo, or the making thereof. Not a "know it all" by any means though......always learning.
Many of my teaching courses (local college police courses) surrounded ballistics, and cartridge nomenclature, etc., and this was all self-taught......apparently the FBI thought is was good enough to certify me when it came to that. Out of the 20 yrs. I served, I was a Firearms Inst./Armorer for more than 16 yrs., and I was a Sniper/Observer on the ERT Unit for better than 8, also certified by the FBI.
This is not to mention that I worked directly with Winchester, Remington, S&W, Glock, Speer & Federal, as well as the NYSP Firearms Unit, in firearms & ammunition testing. I can easily prove what I claim....
The pressure on me to prove myself and what I had learned over my lifetime was tremendous, but I passed muster, to their satisfaction.....so, although no one's perfect.......I'm not totally off on the subject.
Regarding the correlation of the two issues, there isn't much other than the fact that I'm not new to it all there my friend......and I wasn't just a simple "Barney Fife flatfoot".......
Hopefully, if you ever need saving from a situation, you'll have a little more respect for those that serve & protect you.
The difference between the two machines are "night & day"
obvious. If Lee has gained customer's in their comparison of the Classic Turret to the T-Mag, or other presses of the like, then they have gained on false premise.
Bottom line..........it's not a win or lose situation, and never was.....you either believe it & buy it, or you don't...simple math....
Bob
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