Which USA pump most likely to cycle?

[MCgunner]

I'll trust my Mossberg to any 870 and when it comes time to reload, BIG TIME advantage if you're in a hurry. I've had the shell under the shell elevator jam more'n once on an 870. The shell elevator is up out of the way on the Mossberg. Now, you could call that a "user malfunction", but I defy the same user to duplicate it on a Mossberg.

BTW, after 20 years of pumpin' up ducks and geese, my Mossberg is slick as any 870 I've ever used.

 

[bushmaster1313]

So basically this thread has nothing to do with hardware malfunction and everything to do with shooter malfunction as per the OP? Short-stroking and "forgetting to release the trigger" aren't the gun's fault, and rather than trying to figure out which gun is most likely to forgive bad technique OP should be focusing on learning good technique in the first place.

Yes, developing good technique is an excellent idea. But in the same way an oversized golf club head or an oversized tennis racquet can be more forgiving, I was curious if the forum could recommend the USA made pump most likely not to malfunction because of an operator error in a tense situation.

 

[shockwave]

BTW, after 20 years of pumpin' up ducks and geese, my Mossberg is slick as any 870 I've ever used.

In 19 years I'll be able to confirm or rebut that statement, but so far I'm looking likely to confirm it. The more I fire the Mossberg, the better it gets. The faster I rack 'em, the more it likes it. Feels like a weapon you can trust with your life. Doesn't sound like you can go wrong with an Ithaca or 870 or Mossie - these are all solid guns.

 

[ArmedBear]

if the forum could recommend the USA made pump most likely not to malfunction because of an operator error in a tense situation.

I think the controls of a Mossberg are a little better than an 870, and I have an 870. A common operator error is having the safety set to a different position than one thinks. The Mossberg's safety is visible to the operator, and a tang safety is easier to operate for a number of reasons.

However, if you're really used to something, it can be second nature. Practice mounting the shotgun and taking it off-safe in your living room regularly, along with dry-firing, and it becomes a natural movement, regardless of where the safety is.

I think the reason that there's really no gun that is "more forgiving" is that a pump has no gearing system or mechanical advantage. They all take about the same force, and they all have to be slid 3 inches back and forth. If you short-shuck a Maverick, you'll short-shuck a high-grade Model 12 just the same. If you can operate a BPS reliably, you can operate a Mossberg just the same.

 

[Fred Fuller]

If you short-shuck a Maverick, you'll short-shuck a high-grade Model 12 just the same. If you can operate a BPS reliably, you can operate a Mossberg just the same.

In other words, you're saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow," right?

It's just not possible to separate the operator from the firearm. Any mechanically sound example of a modern American made pumpgun is going to be as reliable as any other to a vanishingly small statistical point. For years we referred to the Big Four here- Ithaca, Mossberg, Remington, Winchester. Any good example of either of them should do just fine. I prefer Remington 870s, others like Mossbergs just as much. Unfortunately Winchester has gone the way of all companies, Ithaca comes and goes, Browning's BPS still gets ignored by a lot of people, and someone elses favorite either from years gone by (the Winchester Model 12 comes to mind) or their favorite import gets left out too. Or they'd rather have a semiauto, or a double barrel. Can't please everybody, and it's differences of opinions that make horse races.

There is no "best" pumpgun. It's a false construct. There are millions of perfectly good pumpguns out there, and it isn't that hard to find one or to afford to buy one. The trick is to become the best shotgunner you can be, and not worry overmuch about the hardware.

Relax and enjoy the process of becoming one with the gun...

fwiw,

lpl

 

[ArmedBear]

In other words, you're saying "It's the Indian, not the arrow," right?

With firearms, it is the equipment that determines just how well one can possibly shoot. The shooter determines how poorly one can possibly shoot.

 

[Fred Fuller]

With firearms, it is the equipment that determines just how well one can possibly shoot.

So it is possible to buy skill in a cardboard box after all?

lpl

 

[WVMountainBoy]

I've had no problems with either my old wingmaster or my new express, I have no idea how many rounds through the the wingmaster but I have about 60 rds through it with no issue and the express has 500+ with no issues. (I've had the express longer, only had the wingmaster a month) I use winchester super x 00 buck in both. No failures and the express has done some rapid drills. That being said, plenty of my friends are dyed in the wool Mossy fans and I've only seen one ever malfunction in hundreds of thousands of rounds fired...the safety became loose and would go into safe after being fired. It was remedied at the bench in about a half hours worth of cussing. Two of my family members purchased JIC's and did the mandatory 200 round test with 00 buck with no failures...those firearms were then assigned permenant truck duty

 

[ArmedBear]

So it is possible to buy skill in a cardboard box after all?

No. The upper performance limit is determined by the capabilities of the equipment. The lower performance limit is determined by the capabilities of the user.

 

[JohnBT]

"There is no "best" pumpgun"

I guess I'll skip mentioning the Model 12 Winchester then.

 

[ArmedBear]

Winchester Model 12, the Pilsner Urquell of shotguns.

 

[mljdeckard]

I've shot a bajillion rounds through 79s, 870s, Model 12s mostly, and a lot through other guns. If I've ever short-stroked one, I can't remember. I think it's because the old marine who taught me said something to the effect of; "You won't hurt that gun. Rack it like you mean it, there's never any reason to handle a shotgun otherwise."

 

[Gord]

bushmaster1313 and chevyforlife21, my apologies are extended for the tone of my previous posts in this thread - yesterday was "one of those days" and I got a little grumpier than I shoulda.

If you care to do a search and read up, you'll find no shortage of back-and-forth on whether the Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 is a better shotgun, and like most other "what is best?" questions, the only answer is - the one that works best for you. I haven't been that impressed with the build quality on the 500s I've messed with, and I can't stand the Mossberg forend rattle/play, so I run an 870 - but I love the tang safety on the Mossbergs, and, in theory, I think the pump release is in a better spot. In practice, I do a lot better with the 870 just because it's what I'm used to and what I grew up using.

As AB mentioned, all pumps are fundamentally about the same in function, and it's doubtful that you're going to get any sort of advantage out of any given model. What you can do is accessorize as you feel necessary - the 870, for example, has jumbo safeties, high-visibility followers, all sorts of forend lengths/shapes and so forth available to correct any deficiencies you may perceive in the stock product.

Other than that, the best way to ensure the smooth, reliable operation of your shotgun is to put a bunch of rounds through it, wear it in and practice the smooth, reliable operation of you.

 

[reckless carolinian]

Forget to release the trigger on a 37? No disconnector means ready or not, here's the follow up shot. Results may vary.

 

[MCgunner]

Forget to release the trigger on a 37? No disconnector means ready or not, here's the follow up shot. Results may vary.

Some people actually LIKE that feature.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Forget to release the trigger on a 37? No disconnector means ready or not, here's the follow up shot. Results may vary.

Not with all the 37's!

The early ones were all slamfire. Keep the trigger pulled and the next round would fire as soon as it was chambered (and hopefully not before)

Later civilian models did not slam fire, and if the trigger was held the next round would not fire when chambered and when you let go the trigger and pulled it it still would not fire.

Later Police models had a feature which would not slam fire, but if you released and then pulled the trigger it would fire.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

870!! Wingmaster!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[reckless carolinian]

Thank you, bushmaster. Again, I stand corrected. My 37 is a 1960. I was unaware that all 37s were not created equally. In the future, any reference I make to the Model 37 will be applicable to early 37s only.

 

[Youngster]

I think the reason that there's really no gun that is "more forgiving" is that a pump has no gearing system or mechanical advantage. They all take about the same force, and they all have to be slid 3 inches back and forth. If you short-shuck a Maverick, you'll short-shuck a high-grade Model 12 just the same. If you can operate a BPS reliably, you can operate a Mossberg just the same.

I disagree, these pumps may be all the same in mechanical principle but they differ enough in mechanical parameters to make for different end results at times.

I agree that the operator is the most important factor but for whatever reason, I still say that some designs just seem to be easier to short stroke *given less than optimal technique or conditions* than others.

 

[straitnate14]

Ithaca M37, pumps so smooth and fast you dont even know you pumped it Oh and on my two 1971 37's they both slam fire, it's about usless but it's fun once and awhile

 

[Southpaw 02]

Reckless carolinian, Your M37 will slam fire. It is not something I would consider doing on a regular basis Yes, I have done it with mine a couple of times.

SP

 

[MCgunner]

Yes, the 37 is very smooth. I'd like to pick one up, but they sell for more at the gun shows if you find one. I'm not sure what I'd use it for, but I used to shoot one when I was a kid, borrowed it from my uncle for duck and goose hunting. It was an awesome slick pump. The Browning is better, tang safety, but it's heavier and doesn't handle as well as the old 37 IMHO if you are upland bird or dove hunting. The Browning is no liability iin the duck marsh, though.

Yeah, I have my preferences due to ergos for the Mossberg and Browning as I shoot southpaw and appreciate the tang safety even if I didn't. Add to that the fact that when you reload, you have an open shot to the magazine, no way to accidently jam the gun. I like that....a lot. But, as far as one working better than the other, other than the shell under the shell elevator jam that irritated me with the Wingmaster I had, they all function well. If you really think Remington is more than a shell if its former self (I don't) and drink the 870 koolade, go for it, it's STILL not a bad gun. I just swore off 'em 30 years ago for the Mossberg as the ergos alone make it a better gun IMHO.

 

[ArmedBear]

I disagree, these pumps may be all the same in mechanical principle but they differ enough in mechanical parameters to make for different end results at times.

Whether you disagree or not, they all need to be pumped the same distance with similar force to eject a hull and load a new shell.

The mechanical parameters that are different are the designs of the lifters, and the shapes and sizes of foreends. You're right, the results can be different, especially WRT a jam, how easy it is to clear, etc. but obviously nobody cares about jams, since they seem to think the 870 is the best gun.

 

[MCgunner]

Ah, my Winchester pumps itself.

 

[Mr. T]

Winchester 1300, Remington 870 Wingmaster, Mossberg 500 & 835 will all do the job for you. I listed mine in order of preference and yes I own all three and have hunted hard with all three.