bannockburn
Member
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- Apr 24, 2007
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I agree with CraigC and Mn Fats: while I loved the Speed Six in .357 I would go with the "beefier" GP100 in .44 Special.
Which would you rather have.. Ruger GP100 .44 Spl. or Ruger Speed Six .44 Spl.?
- Thread starter Deaf Smith
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I'd be interested in something a bit trimmer than the GP100/L-frame sized guns so the Speed Six conversion is the one for me. I see no need to hot rod the 44 Special.
Large, heavy, slow moving bullets perform well at shorter ranges in my opinion.
Large, heavy, slow moving bullets perform well at shorter ranges in my opinion.
Crowman
Member
I looked the .44 Special GP100 option over closely when it first came out, saw the initial quality issues and pulled back. Also, it is rather blocky and heavy. The out-of-the box option I chose instead, was the 5-shot S&W Model 69 short barrel (2-3/4"). It is both trimmer and weighs less than the 5-shot GP100. Plus, it has a better trigger out of the box. Even though it is chambered in .44 Magnum, I choose to carry Buffalo Bore heavy .44 Specials in it, but have a speedloader full of magnums handy if I should need 'em when l'm heading out in the woods. It's a couple of ounces lighter than my GP100 match champion.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
They weigh exactly the same. I don't know why people have this perception that the GP is heavier and bulkier than the L-frame. Perhaps a result of the marketing war in the `80's and `90's?
Craig,
I wasn't suggesting 44 Specials should be loaded only at original performance levels. I agree there's a huge gap between the low pressure 44 Special of the early 1900s and the 44 Magnum. I was simply saying the with the availability of 44 Magnums I don't see the point of trying to make a "Magnum" out of the 44 Special. I've seen some loads posted that are scary. Shooting those loads out of the lighter 44 Specials you describe may make those doing so feel manly but I bet their follow-up shots come some time after acquiring a new grip and then getting back on target.
I saw this after a couple 44 Special fans went though my CCW qualification classes. One had the Rossi 3" 44 Special and the other had a Charter Arms Bulldog. They were very proud of their "Elmer" hand loads but their shooting style was very much "slow fire". The guy with the Bulldog had such a bad flinch he only qualified was after I suggested he switch to single action for the longer shots.
I admit the above experience colors my opinion on loading the 44 Special but my approach to handgun shooting has always been oriented toward self defense and making fast, controlled shots on target. Slower shooting because you're recovering from recoil is a detriment.
YMMV,
Dave
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I would flip that and say why would you want to carry and shoot a .44Mag when a .44Spl will do what you need it to? Has nothing to do with feeling manly, which I do not associate with firearms at all. It's an issue of utility and practicality, portability and weight. The GP is 6oz lighter than the 629MG and much more so than the Redhawk.
Same for the single actions. The .44Spl is a perfect fit for mid-sized guns like the mid-frame Blackhawk, New Vaquero, Colt SAA, New Frontier and replicas. All of which are significantly more packable than your average .44Mag sixgun.
As I said before, a 1200fps load is not a "magnum" load. It is a heavy .44Spl load. Add 250fps and 10,000psi and you have a "magnum" load. The 1200fps Keith load is not the only load in question. The famed Skeeter load consisting of the same 250gr SWC over 7.5gr Unique for 950fps is also over SAAMI pressure standards but infinitely useful in the field and on the range. These loads are safe in certain guns, unwise in some and completely unsafe in others. Neither the Charter Arms nor the Rossi are guns anyone 'should' consider safe for the Keith load.
Same for the single actions. The .44Spl is a perfect fit for mid-sized guns like the mid-frame Blackhawk, New Vaquero, Colt SAA, New Frontier and replicas. All of which are significantly more packable than your average .44Mag sixgun.
As I said before, a 1200fps load is not a "magnum" load. It is a heavy .44Spl load. Add 250fps and 10,000psi and you have a "magnum" load. The 1200fps Keith load is not the only load in question. The famed Skeeter load consisting of the same 250gr SWC over 7.5gr Unique for 950fps is also over SAAMI pressure standards but infinitely useful in the field and on the range. These loads are safe in certain guns, unwise in some and completely unsafe in others. Neither the Charter Arms nor the Rossi are guns anyone 'should' consider safe for the Keith load.
muzzleblast...
Member
When introduced, I considered the "Sixes" to be pedestrian compared to the competing S&Ws and Colts. Over time I gained an appreciation for their simplicity, ruggedness and even their looks. Now, I consider then as "classic" and peer to the Model 10s, 19s, Detective Specials and Troopers. A five shot "Six" would be uber cool. I wouldn't want to pay for the conversion, however.
Speaking of margins seem to recall an outfit in Spokane that converted a Model 19 to .44 SP. Would have been interesting to see the forcing cone thickness on it.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
A member here has one. Both the forcing cone and outer chamber walls are paper thin. Definitely one for standard loads only.
Crowman
Member
The S&W model 69 short barrel weighs 34.4 oz ; whereas, the GP100 in .44 Special short barrel variant weighs 36 ozs. The S&W is less boxy. Smaller barrel profile. Easy to see when you handle both and compare side by side..
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The Ruger is 34oz, not 36oz.
Stylistically, the S&W might be a little sleeker looking but that's an aesthetic aspect. I'm all about S&W's for older guns but in new guns, I see little distinction. I have more than double the number of S&W's as Ruger DA's but the advantages that S&W's used to have are largely gone.
Stylistically, the S&W might be a little sleeker looking but that's an aesthetic aspect. I'm all about S&W's for older guns but in new guns, I see little distinction. I have more than double the number of S&W's as Ruger DA's but the advantages that S&W's used to have are largely gone.
DM~
Member
I can tell you, they are FAR from paper thin.... And, the gun is still tight and shoots as well now as it did when new...
DM
Crowman
Member
I got the 36.0 ounce weight directly from Ruger's spec sheet for the .44 Special Model 1761 GP100 with 3" barrel. Might not be a lot...but every ounce counts when you're packing other stuff.
My spring / summer ridge walker is a GP100 Match Champion and with it's shaved down barrel and melted cylinder, it is closer in weight and profile to my Model 69 long barrel. The regular production model GP100 in a 4.2" barrel runs 40 ounces and the Model 69 runs 37.4 ounces but the svelte GP100 Match Champion weighs in at 38 ounces. Also both the Match Champion and model 69 balances about the same, and yes, they will fit the same holsters. The Match Champion has by far the smother action. Love both.
I did; however, see and feel a difference between the short barrel 69 and the 1761 GP100 short barrel 44 which influenced my choice...and between the two I looked at, the Smith did have the smother trigger...just sayin'.....
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Ruger's spec sheet is wrong and it ain't the first time. Everyone who has put one on a scale, myself included, has reported 34oz.
They are very thin and as I said, not suitable for anything heavier than standard loads. Which was the maker's warning when he built the guns. The L-frame 696 is borderline and unsuitable for anything heavier than the Skeeter load.
W.R.Buchanan
Member
OK that's not the case at all. The 696 was tested with .44 Magnum loads and survived just fine, and was the basis for the new M69 5 shot .44 Magnum Revolver that Smith is selling.
The weak part of the 696 is the forcing cone, as it is very thin there. The M69 corrected this by increasing the frame size around the barrel threads and the thread size on the barrel resulting in a Larger Spigot and stronger forcing cone.
Even so The 696 only had a problem when you leaded up the forcing cone and then shot a jacketed bullet thru it. Then they cracked.
Mine has not cracked and I shoot nothing but .44 Special loads in the 850-950 fps range, or similar to Skeeter Loads.
There is little need to run that gun harder as a 250 gr SWC will go clean thru an Elk in any direction at 900fps. 2-3 men wouldn't stop one.
The Ruger gun came about because S&W dropped the 696 family in favor of the M69 in .44 Mag. The Ruger is a pretty neat gun and if I didn't have the 696 I'd damn sure get one. It is essentially a S&W696 made by Ruger.
IF you are planning on getting one insist on a very late production gun as there were problems with big cylinder throats and poorly fitted front sights on the early guns. This has all been fixed. But do measure the cylinder throats anyway and if they are bigger than .430-431 don't buy it.
Randy
zb338
Member
Get the GP100 unless you want light weight. The GP100 is a heavy gun
and that's one of the reasons it shoots so good.
Zeke
and that's one of the reasons it shoots so good.
Zeke
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I was talking about the forcing cone, which is why S&W enlarged it. Now imagine how thin it would be on a K-frame model 19. If you're telling me the 696 would survive at .44Mag levels, I have some Arizona beachfront property to sell you.
The 1200fps Keith load is just as viable now as it was then. Same reasons and rules apply.
The 1200fps Keith load is just as viable now as it was then. Same reasons and rules apply.
DM~
Member
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No, it's what an acquaintance was told when he talked to him. You're not the only one. 
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DM~
Member
An acquaintance told Vern what pressure to keep them under?? That doesn't make any sense to me...but once again, I'm getting info second or third hand...so ? It's probably just like the "paper thin" comment!No, it's what an acquaintance told him when he talked to him. You're not the only one.
I talked to Vern many times, so this is FIRST HAND info here... He NEVER said that to me, and I still have my M-19 44spl. that he made for me, it's still tight and shoots just fine.
He told me about how he sent one to S&W to see what they thought about it. It came back after a long period of time and Vern said it had been shot a BUNCH, but still worked fine, and no comment from S&W.
In MY many phone conversations with Vern, he just told me to keep the speed under 1000fps, and that's faster than I load spl's and it's a lot faster than factory loads! Even Keith had brains enough to switch to 44 mag. as soon as he could, and I have several of them, IF I need more than 1000 fps loads.
DM
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Sorry, I didn't word that right.
So what are we arguing about? Why do you feel the need to get defensive when anyone suggests that hot-rodding a .44Spl model 19 is not a good idea? Or that the gun is getting critically thin in places like the outer cylinder walls and forcing cone. I've seen enough pics of these guns to know. Why is this even an argument?
Everything surrounding the Keith load is a known. We know the pressures and we know what guns it's safe in. More importantly, we know what guns it is not safe in. Even such obscure examples as your Spokanguns model 19. I see absolutely no reason to abandon it because the guns it's most appropriate for still have advantages over your average .44Mag.
DM~
Member
I'm certainly not arguing at all, I am CORRECTING the inaccurate info YOU seem to keep putting out...
And now that you admit that you get your info second and third hand, that explains the inaccuracies...
AND, now that I've corrected your info, with ACCURATE info, I'll leave you to post what ever you want... lol
DM
And now that you admit that you get your info second and third hand, that explains the inaccuracies...
AND, now that I've corrected your info, with ACCURATE info, I'll leave you to post what ever you want... lol
DM
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I have posted ZERO inaccurate info in this thread. I know you think you have some sort of exclusivity to something obscure but I had heard about them, read about them and conversed about them with not only those who owned them but gunsmiths who build this sort of thing, long before you came along. Fact is, they're about like a .41Spl Single Six, all the cartridge you can stuff in the platform with very little safety margin.
Riomouse911
Member
Correct, I misidentified it as an SP rather than a GP...musta been half asleep when I posted..
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