White female officers more likely to use deadly force.

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FWIW, I emailed Coulter when I first read the article and told her that in my opinion she could have made her point better with a little less sarcasm/cutesie humor. No response.

The size and strength disparity is definitely an issue. Remember, this situation couldn't have gone nearly as bad as it did if Nichols simply escaped, or even if the escorting officer had managed to escape Nichols after realizing he was overmatched.

Nichols had to overpower his guard completely (it wouldn't have been enough to just gain the upper hand for a moment) so that he could retrieve the key to the lockbox. He had to do it quickly, and he had to do it without attracting attention. Pitting him against someone roughly his own size and strength would dramatically reduce his chances of achieving all these goals. ALL of which were necessary in order for the fiasco to be as bad as it was.
 
That's kind of like telling Godiva to not deal in so much chocolate. Coulter's business is hard-right-wing scarcasm/cutesy humor, not presenting dispassionate arguments.

Kind of like a thinner, blonder P.J. O'Rourke with rabies.
 
Female cops are here to stay, so this whole debate is utterly pointless
in some fields, being challenged by inadequacies can be a good thing.

but when that challenge can result in lives being endangered, the line must be drawn.

maybe female officers could all be assigned to work with only femme-homosexuals?
 
Affirmative Action Has Mixed Results for Cops

Tuesday, March 29, 2005

By John Lott, Jr.

In the furor that followed a daring and allegedly deadly Atlanta courthouse escape March 11, some pointed to the differences in strength and size of the suspect and the female deputy guarding him as a key factor that allowed the man to get a gun.

But what has been ignored in the case of Brian Nichols is the role that affirmative action has played in hiring standards for police.

There are extremely important benefits to having police departments that mirror the characteristics of the general population. Females and minorities are important for undercover work. A female victim of crime might feel more comfortable talking to another woman. Women might be particularly useful in domestic violence cases.

The same holds true for minority victims of crime. Minority officers who come from the local communities they are policing might also bring knowledge about the area that makes them more effective officers.

The problem is that because of large differences in strength and size between men and women, different standards are applied to ensure that there are more female officers. In the Nichols case, the difference was stark: the suspect was 33 years old and 6 feet tall; the female sheriff's deputy guarding him was 51 years old and 5-foot-2.

Similarly, the intelligence tests used to screen officers have produced different pass rates for different racial groups. To eliminate those differences, there has been a strong move to stop giving these tests over the last 30 years.

Some argue that these criteria were not important in picking officers, or that intelligence tests are culturally biased — or worse, that the screening criteria exist primarily to ensure that women and minorities are excluded from the profession. There is possibly some truth to this, but there is still the question about how far one goes to ensure that a police force mirrors the community it is protecting.

Some of these differences are fairly large. For example, in a study I published in 2000 examining the effect of affirmative action on police hiring, a comparison of male and female public safety officers found that female officers had 32 percent to 56 percent less upper-body strength and 18 percent to 45 percent less lower-body strength than male officers.

In New York City, because the physical strength rules were so weakened during the 1980s, a former NYPD personnel chief complained at one time that many police officers "lack the strength to pull the trigger on a gun" and do not have the physical strength to run after suspects.

Part of these differences between men and women can be offset by changing technology and operating procedures. Cars can replace foot and bicycle patrols. Two-officer units can replace single-officer units, though these changes mean less contact between officers and the public and less area covered.

Officers can also be issued more protective gear. Indeed, my own published research finds these exact changes in police departments when hiring standards are changed for women.

We also see that as a greater percentage of a department is made up of women, the competition among men for the remaining slots increases and the average strength and size of men admitted actually rises, partly offsetting the weaker strength of the newer female officers.

The net effect of changing hiring rules for women is mixed. I couldn't find any significant overall change in crime rates when more female police officers were hired (though rape rates did decline). There were some less desirable consequences, and they fit in with the recent experience we have just seen in the Atlanta courthouse attack.

Increasing the number of women officers under these reduced strength and size standards consistently and significantly increases the number of assaults on police officers. In general, every 1 percent increase in the number of women in a police force results in a 15 to 19 percent increase in the number of assaults on the police, because women tend to be weaker than men.

Why? The more likely that a criminal's assault on a police officer will be successful, the more likely criminals will do it. The major factor determining success is the relative strengths and sizes of the criminal and officer. The 200-pound Nichols might have decided not to try to escape had his guard been closer to his own size.

My research uncovered another interesting finding. Female officers are more likely to accidentally shoot people. Each 1 percent increase in the number of white female officers in a police force increases the number of shootings of civilians by 2.7 percent. Because of their weaker physical strength, female officers have less time to decide on whether to fire their weapon. If a man makes a mistake and waits too long to shoot a suspect who is attacking him, the male officer still has a chance of using his strength to subdue the attacker. Female officers (as was the case in Atlanta) will lose control of the situation at that point.

While creating a more diverse police force may produce some benefits, we still shouldn’t forget the differences between men and women. Just as women officers are better suited for some jobs, there are other jobs that simply call for large men.
 
What is the important criteria here?

The abilities of women, or their purpose? The Creator makes two sexes because He has different purposes for each. Risking life and limb to preserve the public safety is a job for men; that's one thing that we are for. It is not something which women should be expected, or on a professional basis permitted, to do.

I laugh at your scorn. :)
 
I must agree with some folks on this board. Most women lack the size and strength to be an effective deterrent against larger, stronger opponents.
I remember reading a magazine in a HS weight-lifting class that said pound for pound, women are nearly as strong as men in the lower body, but were, on the average, 50% weaker than men in upper body strength.

While some girls thought it great that they were as strong as men, a quick look at the numbers showed that they weren't as strong when compared directly with men.

The expierience I had that convinced me of this was a female officer-candidate. She was about 5'2" and around 100 pounds. Now, that 100lbs was almost solid muscle and she was in excellent shape. However, she was trying to be a cop because she had already failed the firemen's physical fitness test. She couldn't complete the dummy drag and hose carry. She also didn't fare well when I sparred (in Krav Maga) with her. She could hold her own, but if we had actually been going full speed and truly fighting, I would have overpowered her. (I am 5'11" and 165 lbs with a wiry medium build)

Women shouldn't be cops. They lack the strength and size needed...well, most of em do. An "A" for effort doesn't count when you are bleeding out in a gutter.
 
This whole debate is utterly valuable

Female cops are here to stay, so this whole debate is utterly pointless.
No, it isn't pointless. Not when doing something for the sake of appearances gets people killed.

TM


..And what about this prodigious use of "female", when the perfectly servicable "women" remains available? To the journalists of the world - Structure your sentences so that the latter noun finds a natural home therein!

Everytime I hear the word female, I conclude: What breed? :rolleyes:
 
90% of law enforcement is communication. Guess what, guys, women are better at communicating than we are.

I have had several women for partners. I tend to favour women as cops. Since we can track Use of Force incidents now, it has been somewhat interesting to see how much my Use of Force rate drops when I'm partnered with a woman, than when I'm partnered with a male officer.

In my un-official observations, a male/female officer pairing is best: the woman to talk to the subject, and the guy for muscle in case the talking fails.

Me, I'm not getting paid to beat the daylights out of people. Each time I can bring an arrestee to jail without an additional three hours of paperwork, or a stop at the ER, because my female partner talked him out of a case of the stupids, I think of it as a gain.

*shrug*

Just my $0.02. YMMV.

LawDog
 
Since we can track Use of Force incidents now, it has been somewhat interesting to see how much my Use of Force rate drops when I'm partnered with a woman, than when I'm partnered with a male officer.


I hope you are right. Just watch out, you may need some extra muscle one night, and the Female you are partnered with cant hack it and gets both your butts a trip to the ER.
 
Yes, our methods most definitely will vary. In that respect, Vernal45 makes a timely observation.

Feminism is an ideology, not a description of reality. Political correctness should have no place in America. It is always costly to allow politics to trump reality. The results can be tragic.

TM
 
I'd agree, though maybe the women should have to demonstrate the same minimal level of physical ability as the men in jobs that are physically dangerous, which they typically don't.

Obvious example: a failing physical fitness test score for a man in the Army could earn a woman a physical fitness badge.
Well I'm all for ONE standard, pass or get out. HOWEVER, one standard should mean ONE, not a sliding scale for age. I wonder how many overweight, donut eating older men, who get winded thinking about a flight of stairs, think Ann is right about women cops, but wouldn't want ONE standard if it meant they had to keep up with the 25 year olds. That goes for the military folks too.

Ann is an idiot pushing an agenda.
 
There never was a question of the females' ability or physical prowlness when they were hired to be meter maids and matrons for female prisoners. :)
 
And what about this prodigious use of "female", when the perfectly servicable "women" remains available?
And what about the use of "women" as an adjective? Such as "women cops." I don't care what your dictionary says, it is clumsy and just plain wrong. Use "female" when an adjective is needed, no matter the species or breed.
 
And what about the use of "women" as an adjective? Such as "women cops." I don't care what your dictionary says, it is clumsy and just plain wrong. Use "female" when an adjective is needed, no matter the species or breed.
I don't use nouns as a proxy for adjectives. That is why I did not suggest "women cops" in place of "female cops". Neither construction is correct. I will admit that the second term is (sadly) somewhat palatable after hearing and seeing the placement of the word female abused for years now.

Admittedly, this point wasn't clear in my initial post. What I wanted to bring attention to is the careless substitution of female for woman (or lady, or girl) in virtually all grammatical circumstances:

"She was a woman of rare beauty and intellect."
vs.
"She was a female of rare beauty and intellect."

This is where such clumsiness is most evident. Yes, I've heard the second observation proffered for my approval. The speaker had lousy sentence structure, but the chicklet in question was in fact a smart hottie...

On behalf of those of us who do care what Mr. Webster says,
TM
:p
 
"Female police officer" is not correct? Pray tell what is?

Isn't "female' an adjective and a noun?

Or am I miss-understanding you? Get it? Miss? Ha-ha.

Sorry.
 
I see Coulter doesn't need to be bothered with the truth. Why be rational when one can spout off their personal opinions as fact?

Anyone old enough to be a grandfather or grandmother shouldn't be alone in escorting a violent perp, especially unarmed. Any cop, regardless of gender, should reasonably expect backup. Lasting three minutes in a fight is rather impressive. Generally fights are over a lot quicker than that.

I've never gotten into a fight with any police, nor had any occassion for them to require them escorting me anywhere. I did once get into a misunderstanding with the MP's. It was a really stupid miscommunication. I was doing my job, and they over-reacted. (I was indeed cleared, and the MP's got a good screaming from their CO.) I ended up thrashing half a dozen male MP's, then got the ever-loving tar smacked out of me by two tiny females with riot sticks. Go figure...

Some women are not good cops. Some are. Some guys are not good cops. Some are. Deal.
 
Size Matters II

Certinly no expert, but I seem to remember reading long ago that NY city a had minimum size for its horses; to make them more imposing and to makie them more effective in crowd control.
 
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