Sunray
Member
You should read your hunting regs. Just because they've dropped the minimum calibre doesn't mean a rimfire is legal for deer. Up here, any centre fire is ok, but not rimfires.
whitetails with rimfire
- Thread starter thomis
- Start date
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Well... at the risk of being censored again, all I can say is thank God Pennsylvania has State Game Lands and National Forests. I really don't think I would like to hunt your land with the stipulations you impose.! Like you said, agree to disagree.
sumpnz
Member
1) I'd only do it if I were in a dire survival situation and a rimfire was all I had, OR if the area was seriously overrun with deer and the human population density of the area made centerfires too noisy/dangerous/etc. I'm not an archer (yet anyway) so that's not an option for me right now.
Rimfire is really only suitable for brain/spinal shots as it can't be trusted to drop a deer quickly enough with a heart/lung shot even if it does penetrate deeply enough to cause bleed out. On a head shot, 4" or so of penetration will get you inside the brain cavity with the right shot angle. Major blood vessels and organs in the body will require more than that (probably more like 8", and if you want both lungs more like 12-18" - going off memory here, those number might be off by an inch or 3). Given that it's a close range proposition only as few .22's will have the accuracy past 50 yards to pull that off, and fewer shooters would have the skill to make that accuracy useful. Plus it'll be running out of velocity as you get past 50 or so yards.
2) Ammo selection doesn't matter too much when talking about head shots, except to the extent that they effect accuracy. Rimfires are notorious about being picky about which brands they'll shoot well enough. But solid vs hollow point makes little difference. I might prefer solids as they'll give a little bit more penetration. Whatever the case, I'd use the heaviest bullet available that met the accuracy requirements. I'd go for heavy bullets over fast ones. In that vein I'd also favor .22 over .17 in part for bullet weight, but also for bullet toughness. Been a while since I've looking in the .17 ammo variations, but last time there wasn't much other than fragile varmint type bullets being sold. Might be different by now though.
3) Already covered that in 1) and 2). Brain/spine would be the only place I'd aim for with a rimfire.
caribou
Member
Quote:
First, your opinions about taking deer-sized game with rimfire.
Second, your preference of bullet type and ammo.
Third, your shot placement, very specifically, for the cleanest kill.
Any other points you would like to table.
#1, I do it fairly often in the summer to swimming Caribou.
We always double tap 'em, just to be sure. I have shot hundreds with a .22LR and none got away, and before you freek out, let me tell you how and why;
Its for Food. I live in the Arctic and everything is expensive. I hunt for a living, and we have an advantage where I live of haveing a very wide river which migrating bands of thousands of Caribou cross in the Fall time.
We harvest as many as we can process to prepare for winter, to share and to trade, while making crafts from the hides.
This is a traditional hunt, where before they had boats and kayaks with arrows and lances, they now use guns.
Many Caribou cross together and we dont want pass through shots or ricochets wounding any.We get close and examin all that we are going to shoot and get no sick or poor health animals.
There are often more then one group of hunters that are hunting, and we dont want to shoot anyone either.
None get away. None get to the willows that line the rivers here.
We get quite a few because there is little time between the onset of freezing weather that can freeze and preserve whole Fat carcasses and the Rut that makes Bulls with the 3-4 inches of fat taste like puke.
Caribou have an awfull rut taste and when we see that they have stopped eating and their bellys are full of water, we stop hunting Bulls till Spring.
#2, I prefer solids , Rem Thunderbolts.
#3, We shoot from a bit above and from the rear, into the brain, between the ears. We shoot them till they just slump, usually in the first shot, pithed.
I could see this from a tree stand.
I am in a Game unit larger in sq miles than the state of Indiana is big, with less than 10,000 people and 400,000+ Caribou, and .22 LR is ONLY allowed during shooting in the river, and only at Caribou, in this manner.
Not Bear, moose or any other.
I think the game managers figured this was the best , safest way and with special conditions that govorn using .22lr on big game.
It would be wise to check again, Rm Fire may not be allowed, yet .22 centerfires are, sorta thing.
I hunt for a living, and out of the boat, away from bank to bank Caribou Bulls, I wouldnt use a .22LR on any big game animal unless I was in true NEED.
Good Luck!
First, your opinions about taking deer-sized game with rimfire.
Second, your preference of bullet type and ammo.
Third, your shot placement, very specifically, for the cleanest kill.
Any other points you would like to table.
#1, I do it fairly often in the summer to swimming Caribou.
We always double tap 'em, just to be sure. I have shot hundreds with a .22LR and none got away, and before you freek out, let me tell you how and why;
Its for Food. I live in the Arctic and everything is expensive. I hunt for a living, and we have an advantage where I live of haveing a very wide river which migrating bands of thousands of Caribou cross in the Fall time.
We harvest as many as we can process to prepare for winter, to share and to trade, while making crafts from the hides.
This is a traditional hunt, where before they had boats and kayaks with arrows and lances, they now use guns.
Many Caribou cross together and we dont want pass through shots or ricochets wounding any.We get close and examin all that we are going to shoot and get no sick or poor health animals.
There are often more then one group of hunters that are hunting, and we dont want to shoot anyone either.
None get away. None get to the willows that line the rivers here.
We get quite a few because there is little time between the onset of freezing weather that can freeze and preserve whole Fat carcasses and the Rut that makes Bulls with the 3-4 inches of fat taste like puke.
Caribou have an awfull rut taste and when we see that they have stopped eating and their bellys are full of water, we stop hunting Bulls till Spring.
#2, I prefer solids , Rem Thunderbolts.
#3, We shoot from a bit above and from the rear, into the brain, between the ears. We shoot them till they just slump, usually in the first shot, pithed.
I could see this from a tree stand.
I am in a Game unit larger in sq miles than the state of Indiana is big, with less than 10,000 people and 400,000+ Caribou, and .22 LR is ONLY allowed during shooting in the river, and only at Caribou, in this manner.
Not Bear, moose or any other.
I think the game managers figured this was the best , safest way and with special conditions that govorn using .22lr on big game.
It would be wise to check again, Rm Fire may not be allowed, yet .22 centerfires are, sorta thing.
I hunt for a living, and out of the boat, away from bank to bank Caribou Bulls, I wouldnt use a .22LR on any big game animal unless I was in true NEED.
Good Luck!
KodiakBeer
member
I don't have an issue with taking caribou as you describe, at close range from a boat. Subsistence hunting is not sport hunting and what you're doing is within a context that is not wasteful. But, to let the average guy go out and blaze away at deer in the woods with a .22 is both inhumane and a waste of the resource.
Actually, I suspect the OP may have misread the law and they are talking about .22 centerfire (.223), not rimfire.
Actually, I suspect the OP may have misread the law and they are talking about .22 centerfire (.223), not rimfire.
tango2echo
Member
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 811
NC Hunting Regs.
http://www.ncwildlife.org/regs/2009_10/2009_10_Hunting.pdf
There is no longer a restriction on caliber state wide. Any rimfire or centerfire rifle is legal provided the weapon is legal and it is not prohibited by any county ordnance. There are counties and that require centerfire rifles be used, but I will not say which do as I am not 100% certain. Pistols cannot be rimfire or muzzleloader, must be .24 caliber or larger, and must be suitible for the purpose. This is left up to the GW to determine, but the "rule" as it has been explaned to me required 500ftlbs at the muzzle. (.327 Federal Magnum and up from a revolver for example.)
I think it is a bad idea to hunt deer sized game with a rimfire. However, a 40gr solid from a .22LR HV or some of the .22WMR and .17HMR solids would do the trick. My Grandfather took plenty of deer with a Colt Woodsman .22LR, but that was out of necessity.
On a side note, a few years ago I took a fat doe that weighed about 160lbs. Once on the ground I noticed the side of her head didn't look quite right and there was a large growth there. I usually send half the lower jaw in to the NCWRC for aging and testing, (Don't just send these in. If they want you to they will ask you.) and while removing the jaw I found two nearly perfect .22LR bullets imbedded in the skull.
The issue in NC is the ever growing deer population. We take 800,000 deer a year during the hunting season, and they estimate half that many are killed on the roads and highways, and yet the population increases 200,000 per year. We are currently at 1.6 Million by the latest survey (August 09), and they suspect it will increase atleast 200,000 this year.
The Archery season comes in the second week of September, followed by MZ, Rifle, and now the Urban Archery season in January-February, so depending where you are, you could hunt deer 6 months of the year (eastern part of the state). You can shoot SIX deer per day in most of the state, and in some areas you can purchase additional antlerless deer tags once you have legally taken 6 deer. There is basically no limit in certain parts of the state provided you fill your tags and pay the additional $5 per antlereless deer tag.
The regulations in NC are becoming more and more lax due to the exploding deer population. There's a small 240 acre park near where I live. On most nights you can drive through there and see 200-400 deer eating grass on the side of the road and on the golf course.
t2e
http://www.ncwildlife.org/regs/2009_10/2009_10_Hunting.pdf
There is no longer a restriction on caliber state wide. Any rimfire or centerfire rifle is legal provided the weapon is legal and it is not prohibited by any county ordnance. There are counties and that require centerfire rifles be used, but I will not say which do as I am not 100% certain. Pistols cannot be rimfire or muzzleloader, must be .24 caliber or larger, and must be suitible for the purpose. This is left up to the GW to determine, but the "rule" as it has been explaned to me required 500ftlbs at the muzzle. (.327 Federal Magnum and up from a revolver for example.)
I think it is a bad idea to hunt deer sized game with a rimfire. However, a 40gr solid from a .22LR HV or some of the .22WMR and .17HMR solids would do the trick. My Grandfather took plenty of deer with a Colt Woodsman .22LR, but that was out of necessity.
On a side note, a few years ago I took a fat doe that weighed about 160lbs. Once on the ground I noticed the side of her head didn't look quite right and there was a large growth there. I usually send half the lower jaw in to the NCWRC for aging and testing, (Don't just send these in. If they want you to they will ask you.) and while removing the jaw I found two nearly perfect .22LR bullets imbedded in the skull.
The issue in NC is the ever growing deer population. We take 800,000 deer a year during the hunting season, and they estimate half that many are killed on the roads and highways, and yet the population increases 200,000 per year. We are currently at 1.6 Million by the latest survey (August 09), and they suspect it will increase atleast 200,000 this year.
The Archery season comes in the second week of September, followed by MZ, Rifle, and now the Urban Archery season in January-February, so depending where you are, you could hunt deer 6 months of the year (eastern part of the state). You can shoot SIX deer per day in most of the state, and in some areas you can purchase additional antlerless deer tags once you have legally taken 6 deer. There is basically no limit in certain parts of the state provided you fill your tags and pay the additional $5 per antlereless deer tag.
The regulations in NC are becoming more and more lax due to the exploding deer population. There's a small 240 acre park near where I live. On most nights you can drive through there and see 200-400 deer eating grass on the side of the road and on the golf course.
t2e
usmc1371
Member
I have to assume the OP is talking about shooting gray hound size deer at veery close back back yard range in a populated area. I would never leave my truck with a .22 in my hands and a tag for a mule deer in my pocket BUT I dam sure would head shoot a little white tail out of my garden at 25 yds with a .22.
I think in the context of population control of deer in a human rich area a quiet rifle in .22 or .22wmr being fired from an elavated stand is a reasonable option IF the shooter is accurate enough and has the presence of mind to take humane shots ie good head shot. An arrow is a very leathle option but deer diying in the yard next door may not be cool with the neighbor. In the end it will come down to the guy behind the gun more than the gun. On the down side I am sure there will be some ***** out there who bang away at deer at 150 yds with a 10-22 and assume that because the deer runs off they must have missed.
Note. I am not a minimal cal advocate, shot both my deer last year with a 375 hnh, one head shot one neck shot. Prob not cool in a neighborhood though.
I am not advocating HUNTING deer with a .22, I said I would shoot one out of my garden as very short range with a .22. The gray hound comment was directed towards the deer I saw on and around Camp Lejeune and I am pretty sure I never saw one that would go over 100 pounds. If I were to see a nice buck in my yard or even a big ass old doe I would pass on the .22 or pass on the deer. For ME, I am confident enough in my ability with a rifle and know enough about shot selection that I can say that I would take a small deer under the right conditions with a .22. I have droped enough full grown beef with a .22 mag to know that you can kill a deer with a corectly placed head shot.
I think in the context of population control of deer in a human rich area a quiet rifle in .22 or .22wmr being fired from an elavated stand is a reasonable option IF the shooter is accurate enough and has the presence of mind to take humane shots ie good head shot. An arrow is a very leathle option but deer diying in the yard next door may not be cool with the neighbor. In the end it will come down to the guy behind the gun more than the gun. On the down side I am sure there will be some ***** out there who bang away at deer at 150 yds with a 10-22 and assume that because the deer runs off they must have missed.
Note. I am not a minimal cal advocate, shot both my deer last year with a 375 hnh, one head shot one neck shot. Prob not cool in a neighborhood though.
I am not advocating HUNTING deer with a .22, I said I would shoot one out of my garden as very short range with a .22. The gray hound comment was directed towards the deer I saw on and around Camp Lejeune and I am pretty sure I never saw one that would go over 100 pounds. If I were to see a nice buck in my yard or even a big ass old doe I would pass on the .22 or pass on the deer. For ME, I am confident enough in my ability with a rifle and know enough about shot selection that I can say that I would take a small deer under the right conditions with a .22. I have droped enough full grown beef with a .22 mag to know that you can kill a deer with a corectly placed head shot.
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KodiakBeer
member
I have not hunted in NC, but I don't think the whitetails there are greyhound sized. Blacktails here are considered very small deer, but they still go into the 150 pound range.
One might take nuisance deer in a controlled setting with a .22 and do it humanely and cleanly, but just allowing it statewide is a very bad idea. There are too many Bubba's in the world...
One might take nuisance deer in a controlled setting with a .22 and do it humanely and cleanly, but just allowing it statewide is a very bad idea. There are too many Bubba's in the world...
22-rimfire
Member
I would only use a 22LR in a survival situation for deer. Otherwise, my suggestion is .243 win or larger.
You said head shots... okay.... but I recommend head shots with 223's. You can see where I am going with my caliber opinions regardless of the current law.
Poachers use 22 rimfires for deer (noise). They waste a lot of deer allowing them to run off and die slowly.
You said head shots... okay.... but I recommend head shots with 223's. You can see where I am going with my caliber opinions regardless of the current law.
Poachers use 22 rimfires for deer (noise). They waste a lot of deer allowing them to run off and die slowly.
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buck460XVR
Member
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- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,079
......and it appears some of them work for NC fish and game. The way to deal with an exploding deer population is to have liberal seasons with appropriate quotas and to give easy access to the areas the deer inhabit to those that wish to hunt them. Not by allowing the use of inappropriate firearms. Most urban areas will still be closed to normal civilian deer hunting regardless of caliber used. Most areas of private land will still be inaccessible to the general public, and this is where the large percentage of deer populations will be. Hangingrock's post in this thread is evidence of this. The problem even when there is access is, that the majority of folks don't have a need or desire for more than 1 or two deer. Shooting umpteen antlerless deer is not a challenge, nor is enjoyable to most of us. Give an extra buck tag for every two does shot may give motivation for some to shoot more than they usually do. Free processing for every other deer shot and/or for those deer donated to food pantry's may be motivation also. Can't see where allowing .22 rimfires is gonna help lower the population other than by allowing more deer to run off wounded and wasted so hunters have to shoot more to get the one or two they really want or need.
leetosaurus
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- Joined
- Apr 24, 2010
- Messages
- 10
22 magnum should do it on a broadside shot under 50 yards. I'd use a 40 grain high velocity round.
KodiakBeer
member
That ought to do it! Any deer shot broadside with a .22 mag will be dead within hours.
MCgunner
Member
Lord, may you never let me put the .223 down in another .223 for deer thread again.
Rokman
Member
Did thet drop it down to a .22 pellet gun? You can be even more stealthy quiet with it. Just kidding. I still don't think a .22 rimfire is a good idea.
caribou
Member
Read 'em again....most consensus here, including my own is that .22LR should be the Last cartridge used, and then only out of true "Need".
Just becasue its leagal dosent make it right.
Respect your prey....... Hunt with sudden death as your goal, not lingering pain....
Good luck!
Just becasue its leagal dosent make it right.
Respect your prey....... Hunt with sudden death as your goal, not lingering pain....
Good luck!
Hangingrock
Member
Last year in our hunting section I believe (6) deer were allowed per tag with a maximum of (2) bucks or all (6) could be doe. Other sections allowed the taking of (4) bucks. There is a bonus situation also. (Bow & Arrow Sept 12 – Nov13, Muzzle Loading Nov 14 – 20, & Gun Nov 14 – Dec 19)
In my neck of the woods no one that I know of openly talks about using a 22 rimfire. I’ve personally only had one person tell me that they used a 22 magnum as I’ve previously mentioned.
Most view deer and deer hunting as sportsmanship with hunting ethics others view deer as a nuisance acting accordingly.
As for land access that’s the dilemma. Some hunters create problems for all hunters which makes access problematic and nettlesome.
22-rimfire
Member
Access to land to hunt on is always the problem. Bow hunters often are allowed onto smaller tracts as they are pretty much unseen and create no gunshots. There are a lot of places struggling with escaluting deer populations. But ultimately, there has to be a working understanding with property owners. Some will want to charge for access. I have no problem with that as long as it is not the typical $1K+ you see in South Texas and I don't mean guided hunts there. (Just access.)
OP
OP
thomis
Member
Well, an interesting arrangement of responses.
The OP (that would be me) did not misunderstand the regs and did indeed read them. Rimfires are allowed as legal means of taking deer in NC.
If you want to call and double check on my info the number can be found here:
http://www.ncwildlife.org/CommInfoContacts/Commission_CSS.htm
Of all the comments I read, I had to reply to a few.
-JrSpicer- I would not spine shoot a deer with a .22
-Water man- No one said anything about not being able to afford centerfire rifles
-sumpnz- it wouldn't take 4" of penetration to reach the brain in a deer's skull! have you not ever cut the antlers off a deer? it'd be more like half of an inch.
As I said in the original post, the handful I have shot were all brained and dropped dead. I don't think they ever even heard the shot. It is a matter of not shooting one of my centerfire rifles in the 'burbs.
Thanks for the responses! I got a chuckle out of a few.
The OP (that would be me) did not misunderstand the regs and did indeed read them. Rimfires are allowed as legal means of taking deer in NC.
If you want to call and double check on my info the number can be found here:
http://www.ncwildlife.org/CommInfoContacts/Commission_CSS.htm
Of all the comments I read, I had to reply to a few.
-JrSpicer- I would not spine shoot a deer with a .22
-Water man- No one said anything about not being able to afford centerfire rifles
-sumpnz- it wouldn't take 4" of penetration to reach the brain in a deer's skull! have you not ever cut the antlers off a deer? it'd be more like half of an inch.
As I said in the original post, the handful I have shot were all brained and dropped dead. I don't think they ever even heard the shot. It is a matter of not shooting one of my centerfire rifles in the 'burbs.
Thanks for the responses! I got a chuckle out of a few.
Zeke/PA
Member
Once on a Winter trapline I shot a large Whitetail Doe with my K-22 as she was a target of opportunity ,the range was LESS than 10 yards and I desperatly needed the meat.
.22's for deer hunting??
Not a good idea !
.22's for deer hunting??
Not a good idea !
jim147
Member
I think usmc1371 summed up several of my thoughts but since I can't sleep I'll give you my ramblings.
For all the people worried about the guys coming out with the .22's. I think they have a better chance of practicing then the average guy with the .3?? super overbore ultra short long mag flavor of the month from the gun rags. I have guys in this area that empty their magnum without hitting anything. I have also talked to a guy that emptied a 30/30 and reloaded and emptied it again because the deer 300 yards away didn't seem too worried about it. It is the shooter that makes the difference.
I would use the heaviest solid that shot tiny groups. I would prefer my .22 mag over my rimfires. And I would go for short range head shots.
.25 ACP is legal here. I don't think I would use it. But if it was within 25 yards of my wife, well I'd be making sausage and jerky.
jim
For all the people worried about the guys coming out with the .22's. I think they have a better chance of practicing then the average guy with the .3?? super overbore ultra short long mag flavor of the month from the gun rags. I have guys in this area that empty their magnum without hitting anything. I have also talked to a guy that emptied a 30/30 and reloaded and emptied it again because the deer 300 yards away didn't seem too worried about it. It is the shooter that makes the difference.
I would use the heaviest solid that shot tiny groups. I would prefer my .22 mag over my rimfires. And I would go for short range head shots.
.25 ACP is legal here. I don't think I would use it. But if it was within 25 yards of my wife, well I'd be making sausage and jerky.
jim
andrewstorm
member
22 for deer
223 rem is the reason,it will kill any us lower 48 game with proper placement,when i stomped n. carolina,u couldnt shoot deer with any rifle 22 cal except down east,bears get 500 lbs near the coast,on soy beans,but deer are smallish,some co. u can hunt deer with dogs,anson co. is great,but u can only use buckshot,coyotes are everywere,for 223 deer use 63 grain pill,(I could feel it lord yeah on a country road)(,going to carolina in my mind james taylor)Oh jim 22 mag is a rimfire Duh
223 rem is the reason,it will kill any us lower 48 game with proper placement,when i stomped n. carolina,u couldnt shoot deer with any rifle 22 cal except down east,bears get 500 lbs near the coast,on soy beans,but deer are smallish,some co. u can hunt deer with dogs,anson co. is great,but u can only use buckshot,coyotes are everywere,for 223 deer use 63 grain pill,(I could feel it lord yeah on a country road)(,going to carolina in my mind james taylor)
Oh jim 22 mag is a rimfire Duh
OP
OP
thomis
Member
Yes, North Carolina deer are a little smaller, probably a little smaller than the national average whitetail. Definitely smaller than our deer of the northwoods. The largest NC buck I shot was an 8 pointer in 2008 that weighed not an ounce more than 120 pounds, before field dressed. There are larger deer in NC but they are few and far betwixt.
I shot a button buck on the last day last year that weighed probably 45 pounds. But man, those were tasty morsels.
I shot a button buck on the last day last year that weighed probably 45 pounds. But man, those were tasty morsels.
stevenacarter77
Member
centerfire pistol rounds like 357mag, 41mag, and 44 mag much better choice IMHO. However it is possible, i think there will be a lot of deer not recovered especially if torso hits are used.
MCgunner
Member
Sure you're not around Austin somewhere?
Even on hill country deer, though, I'll not use a squirrel rifle, even if it was legal. They're small and eat acorns, but they can't climb trees
desidog
Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2008
- Messages
- 2,595
I live in the NYC suburbs of CT - we have a LOT of deer around. You need 10+ acres for a gun; so most hunters bow-hunt. Every year i get a call or two from a friend of a friend or whomever, who has just had an (almost) dead deer turn up on their lawn....generally it was arrowed on the neighbor's, and escaped and evaded across the property line. IMO, death-by-arrow can be a terrible and cruel way to go slowly...and that's with 3 or 4 razors and a 1"+ cutting diameter.
A .22lr is going to deliver a similar lack of hydrostatic shock on impact, and lacks the razors. So overall a bad idea.
Now on those arrowed lawn-deer, i drilled one in the head close-range with a .22lr, and that didn't DRT it. Took 2 rounds to the skull-base. (shots brought in the bow-hunter...another story)
There's many laws i don't agree with, like speed-limits, but center-fire-only for deer is not one of them. Unethical shooting will hurt the sport and the public perception of gun-owners and hunters in the long run; not to mention the deer.
A .22lr is going to deliver a similar lack of hydrostatic shock on impact, and lacks the razors. So overall a bad idea.
Now on those arrowed lawn-deer, i drilled one in the head close-range with a .22lr, and that didn't DRT it. Took 2 rounds to the skull-base. (shots brought in the bow-hunter...another story)
There's many laws i don't agree with, like speed-limits, but center-fire-only for deer is not one of them. Unethical shooting will hurt the sport and the public perception of gun-owners and hunters in the long run; not to mention the deer.
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