Who currently makes the best gas-piston rifle in 6.8 SPC at the best price?
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Zerodefect
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Robinson XCR
Frankly, this weapon collection business is a hobbie and a form of therapy for me. I work like an animal 24/7 and this is one of few things outside of work that I enjoy - buying guns that is. I go to the range just about every weekend when I can. I set a budget for myself and try to buy the best stuff I cna for the money -- buy best stuff I meant the most interesting weapons with multi use. For example, what I find interesting about a platform in a 6.8 SPc is that this round appears to be well suited for many things, like defense and hunting. I am really looking forward to starting hunting as a serious hobbie....and I think that a rifle in 6.8 SPc would be a good choise for both target practice and hunting and as a SHTF weapon. I am having a hard time with the costs involved in purchasing a decent gas piston rifle that fires this round....m beginning to consider a mini 14 in 6.8 as a poor man's version of what I really want.
I don't know how good they are but it seems to me that you could easily assemble a 6.8spc gas piston rifle for around a grand based on the cost of an upper. (see here) About the mini 14, they tend to have a reputation for being inaccurate, but some say the newer ones are much better.
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" soldiers rely on them, and many professionals in other countries who can make an educated decision choose them over other systems. I've been no fan in the past, but whether I like them or not, DI AR's and M16's have worked, and worked well for over 45 years. "
I do agree with much of what you stated, when you are trained and used to living with the DI system it has its advantages, you adapt to its shortcomings, and make due, you take advantage of its strong points.
The strong points of a DI system are simply lightweight, few parts, simple disassembly, easy accuracy.
Its weak points are also religious need for maintance, need for loads of lube (and not just any lube either, many will cause worse problems, a recent return from Afganistan told me today that they were stuck with a lube supplied to them to use on every weapon, it caked up the M4 and made it look like you were baking inside of it), sensitivity to grit, dirt, sand, water, mud, etc, excessive heat and carbon buildup during frequent usage.
In a recent discussion with an old roomate of mine who I served in combat with (whos been a long time LEO now). He commented that we should have had gas piston rifles while we were infantryman, it would have made our job easier in many ways. There are times in war that religious maintance is not always realistic, these times are infrequent, but they do happen.
So far the stories Ive heard of GP AR rifles failing or parts breaking are all something that someone told someone, who told someone else, and so on, never firsthand info. Just like the "brand snob" stories so popular here, the other one starts with "well an instructor at a carbine course said....". Yet while calling many carbine course instructors I can never verify any of these stories ever happening.
I appreciate the discussion, and enjoy it, dont take anything the wrong way.
"That doesn't make a gas piston inherently superior, just preferred."
It makes the GP rifle superior or preferred in many environments. For us here at home shooting at the range, cleaning it spotless, then storing it for the week, or carrying it in a vehicle for duty purposes, DI works great. For those soldiers in the desert, in the mud, in the dust, those who operate in or near water, the GP rifle is superior.
Keep in mind that to this day Israel still has many many M4s, and M16s, so do other countries, but they were a better choice than what was available. Now its hard to say, and remains to be seen what will replace them.
POF is a great deal for the price.
I just recently bought an upgarde part for mine from POF, their customer service is great (the roller cam pin). This was a one of the parts Im currently waiting for to add as an upgrade. The anticipation of new gun stuff being sent....
Have a nice day.
I do agree with much of what you stated, when you are trained and used to living with the DI system it has its advantages, you adapt to its shortcomings, and make due, you take advantage of its strong points.
The strong points of a DI system are simply lightweight, few parts, simple disassembly, easy accuracy.
Its weak points are also religious need for maintance, need for loads of lube (and not just any lube either, many will cause worse problems, a recent return from Afganistan told me today that they were stuck with a lube supplied to them to use on every weapon, it caked up the M4 and made it look like you were baking inside of it), sensitivity to grit, dirt, sand, water, mud, etc, excessive heat and carbon buildup during frequent usage.
In a recent discussion with an old roomate of mine who I served in combat with (whos been a long time LEO now). He commented that we should have had gas piston rifles while we were infantryman, it would have made our job easier in many ways. There are times in war that religious maintance is not always realistic, these times are infrequent, but they do happen.
So far the stories Ive heard of GP AR rifles failing or parts breaking are all something that someone told someone, who told someone else, and so on, never firsthand info. Just like the "brand snob" stories so popular here, the other one starts with "well an instructor at a carbine course said....". Yet while calling many carbine course instructors I can never verify any of these stories ever happening.
I appreciate the discussion, and enjoy it, dont take anything the wrong way.
"That doesn't make a gas piston inherently superior, just preferred."
It makes the GP rifle superior or preferred in many environments. For us here at home shooting at the range, cleaning it spotless, then storing it for the week, or carrying it in a vehicle for duty purposes, DI works great. For those soldiers in the desert, in the mud, in the dust, those who operate in or near water, the GP rifle is superior.
Keep in mind that to this day Israel still has many many M4s, and M16s, so do other countries, but they were a better choice than what was available. Now its hard to say, and remains to be seen what will replace them.
POF is a great deal for the price.
I just recently bought an upgarde part for mine from POF, their customer service is great (the roller cam pin). This was a one of the parts Im currently waiting for to add as an upgrade. The anticipation of new gun stuff being sent....
Have a nice day.
Thanks very much for this info. That's the cheapest gas piston upper option that I have seen and I am very excited about this possibility. CMMG is offering this upper for 725 which pticewise actually leaves plenty of room for a decent lower as well...I mean I can get a POF lower (which supposedly is one of the best available) for something like 400 and have a complete 6.8 AR for 1100 or 1200 depending on what other options I chose..that's pretty amazing considering the costs of all a finished LWRC or a POF. It also gives me a new project to occupy my time with...I've never built my own AR.
Has anyone here used the below listed upper from CMMG? Is this quality stuff or junk?
"CMMG AR-15 M4 LEP II Gas Piston Upper Assembly 6.8mm Remington SPC 1 in 11" Twist 16" Barrel WASP Melonite Treated Chrome Moly Matte with M4 Handguard, Flash Hider Pre-Ban"
I've never before assembled an upper with a lower from different manufacturers...will any AR 15 lower work with this? for example an RRA or STag ?
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I've also read some recommendations on "Titan Armory/AR Performance" uppers in 6.8, but I cant figure out whether this is a DI or a GP system. If anyone here is familiar with Titan Armory, please share your experiences/thoughts on the quality of their product and let me know whether this is a DI or a GP system.
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LRS_Ranger
Member
I have an LWRC M6A2 in 5.56 and it is one of the most high quality weapons I have ever handled. My plan is to get a PSD upper in 6.8 if I can find a good price on one. I would like to wait and see if the 6.8 stays or winds up being a fad. I have also handled and fired a POF. It also was impressive. Either would be an excellent platform. Not that others wouldn't be either, but these are the only 2 high end systems I have shot that I know are also offered in 6.8.
As far as the debate on if a $1800+ gun is worth it, here is my take. A quality firearm will last your lifetime. Spending an extra $800 dollars now and getting something that is really high quality; you won't regret it in 10, 20, even 30 years.
As was previously said, they come with options that would cost $$$ in the aftermarket world. Mono freefloating rail, premium barrels, Troy BUIS, VLTOR stock etc. When you factor all that in, the rifle starts looking a lot cheaper. Look at some high quality DI guns, and the prices start getting very compariable.
I don't think that a piston system is something that is going to go out of style any time soon. It is true that the DI system is tried and true, and there are going to be a lot of people that say why fix something that works, which is true for civilian applications. For military applications it's a bit different. And it's not just the shooting that dirties it. The blowing moon dust was FAR worse. You get off a Blackhawk and instantly the roters kick up a cloud of moon dust that turns to sludge and cement on anything wet it comes into contact with(like the oil you have dumped into your gun). You haven't really even started your 6 day mission, and you have 10k of infil left to do in the middle of the night, you haven't even shot your weapon yet, and it's already filthy. Plus, in this situation, it's not like you can just sit down and clean it. You might not be able to clean it for quite some time. You might HAVE to shoot it before you get to clean it. It's just a pain in the butt that IMHO, a piston gets rid of. The DI AR works, but if a piston works better, why resist the switch?
As far as the debate on if a $1800+ gun is worth it, here is my take. A quality firearm will last your lifetime. Spending an extra $800 dollars now and getting something that is really high quality; you won't regret it in 10, 20, even 30 years.
As was previously said, they come with options that would cost $$$ in the aftermarket world. Mono freefloating rail, premium barrels, Troy BUIS, VLTOR stock etc. When you factor all that in, the rifle starts looking a lot cheaper. Look at some high quality DI guns, and the prices start getting very compariable.
I don't think that a piston system is something that is going to go out of style any time soon. It is true that the DI system is tried and true, and there are going to be a lot of people that say why fix something that works, which is true for civilian applications. For military applications it's a bit different. And it's not just the shooting that dirties it. The blowing moon dust was FAR worse. You get off a Blackhawk and instantly the roters kick up a cloud of moon dust that turns to sludge and cement on anything wet it comes into contact with(like the oil you have dumped into your gun). You haven't really even started your 6 day mission, and you have 10k of infil left to do in the middle of the night, you haven't even shot your weapon yet, and it's already filthy. Plus, in this situation, it's not like you can just sit down and clean it. You might not be able to clean it for quite some time. You might HAVE to shoot it before you get to clean it. It's just a pain in the butt that IMHO, a piston gets rid of. The DI AR works, but if a piston works better, why resist the switch?
I have a PSD in 5.56 which I absolutely love...I too considered and still am considering getting an upper in 6.8 from LWRc...but I relaly cnat find a decent price for oen that would make sense. They tend to run only a few hundred less than a complete LWRC and at that point I might as well suck it up and go from 1900 hundred for an upper to 2200 for a complete system...either way its painful.
SHvar said:
I installed roller cam pins in both POFs and also one in a DGI AR. They're a cheap and functional upgrade. The action feels noticeably smoother and hopefully will avoid wearing a hole in the upper receiver. I started a thread detailing the installation of a roller cam pin in a DGI BCG here.
averius said:
I would agree. I bought a stripped POF P415 lower (Gen 3) and it's a thing of beauty with top quality machining, fit and finish all in a billet package with integral trigger guard. The ambidextrous bolt release is so good that I plan on buying more POF stripped lowers to replace my two Bushmaster lowers. Install a NORGON ambi mag release and you're set. You have a choice in the finish coating too ... NP3 or Teflon. You won't regret buying a POF lower regardless of whether you run a GP or DGI upper.
Hatterasguy
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So pretty much its a less expensive Sig 550; that hasn't been fielded by any army.
I'll add the HK 416 to the list. But considering what they cost the LWRC is still ahead IMHO.
If money is tight buy a Ruger 556 for $1,300 or so. Can't go wrong with one of them.
From what I understand H & K is having produsciton problems with their civilian versions of the H & K 416 and 417, i think thye clal them the MR 556 and MR 762...They were supposed to hit the civilian Us market last year but they still dont have any for sale.
Can someone explain to me what a "stripped" lower receiver is? I keep reading this term "striped" lower receiver...as opposed to what a compelte one?
When buying a"stripped" lower receiever does one have to be bought through an FFL and be registered as a weapon?
I am under the impression that an upper can be bought directly from a manufacturer w/o a need for an FFL dealer since its not considered to be a weapon..is this right?
I've never actually built a wepon this way so I am not familiar with the regulatory details...
I mean if I buy 3 different uppers for my LWRC PSD..do I have to register anything with any regulatory bodies??
Also, is it possible to get an SBR lenght upper w/o going through a dealer and having to pay the stmap tax on it to ATF? In other words, is an SBR length upper a class 3 weapon?
Welding Rod
Member
Stripped AR lower requires FFL - It is what comprises "the gun".
"Stripped" just means the lower without any parts like trigger group, mag catch, stock, etc.
Hard for me to imagine a DI AR not being more than adequate for even the most demanding civilian applications.
I like the idea of the 6.8, but am still a bit skeptical about any cartridge other than the 556 being made to work in an AR, and delivering equal longevity and reliability.
"Stripped" just means the lower without any parts like trigger group, mag catch, stock, etc.
Hard for me to imagine a DI AR not being more than adequate for even the most demanding civilian applications.
I like the idea of the 6.8, but am still a bit skeptical about any cartridge other than the 556 being made to work in an AR, and delivering equal longevity and reliability.
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I like the idea of not having to clean and lube all the time. Right or worng, I am convinced that the GP system is more reliable, is less likely to fail due to gases fouling up the chamber, and will last me longer in the long run...so I dont mind paying a few hundred extra for all that.
If I was buying a piston, POF would top my list. Not because of the bells and whistles that aren't really part of the system -handguards, billet machining, etc can stand or fall on their own merits. The piston system POF uses seems to make more sense to my limited understanding of the engineering.
But, if it was DI, having all those bells and whistles would make it nearly the same. Don't forget the NP3 and roller pin. All that can be had on the DI platform too. What it comes right down to is whether you want a piston to pop the BCG to the unlocked position, or gas in the bolt.
If cleaning has a relationship to the casual user, then shooting it less means cleaning it less either way. What is interesting about cleaning the AR is that there is what the command culture insists be done, and what Ordnance says only needs to be done. I've worked on both sides of the house, and what the average soldier does to clean the M16 is often excessive to the point of abuse. What makes it easier is to keep it lubricated enough carbon never sticks to it.
Scraping the tail of the bolt might be necessary to keep corrosion from eating it, but since it's a non contact part, it's no worse than rust on the outside of the barrel. Unsightly, but no loss. A search on the M16's used by the Myanmar peoples will show some really beat up, whited AR's - still functioning in a difficult environment decades later.
Not the best way to care for a tool, but the idea that a piston solves all that isn't accurate. Gas still gets in the action when the cartridge is extracted, the piston is now taking the brunt of the heat, and cleaning it still has to be done if it's an apples to apples comparison. Disassembling a piston action isn't all that easier.
I understand the price difference between different models, but the price difference that remains to modify a BCG, add a piston, etc. is still there. If and when the military goes back to an operating rod piston system, the price will come down because of volume, but that is years away. Goes back to the side charger offering more than the piston for my money - but even that improvement is incremental for a recreational AR shooter or hunter. $399 vs. $89 is a big jump, too.
But, if it was DI, having all those bells and whistles would make it nearly the same. Don't forget the NP3 and roller pin. All that can be had on the DI platform too. What it comes right down to is whether you want a piston to pop the BCG to the unlocked position, or gas in the bolt.
If cleaning has a relationship to the casual user, then shooting it less means cleaning it less either way. What is interesting about cleaning the AR is that there is what the command culture insists be done, and what Ordnance says only needs to be done. I've worked on both sides of the house, and what the average soldier does to clean the M16 is often excessive to the point of abuse. What makes it easier is to keep it lubricated enough carbon never sticks to it.
Scraping the tail of the bolt might be necessary to keep corrosion from eating it, but since it's a non contact part, it's no worse than rust on the outside of the barrel. Unsightly, but no loss. A search on the M16's used by the Myanmar peoples will show some really beat up, whited AR's - still functioning in a difficult environment decades later.
Not the best way to care for a tool, but the idea that a piston solves all that isn't accurate. Gas still gets in the action when the cartridge is extracted, the piston is now taking the brunt of the heat, and cleaning it still has to be done if it's an apples to apples comparison. Disassembling a piston action isn't all that easier.
I understand the price difference between different models, but the price difference that remains to modify a BCG, add a piston, etc. is still there. If and when the military goes back to an operating rod piston system, the price will come down because of volume, but that is years away. Goes back to the side charger offering more than the piston for my money - but even that improvement is incremental for a recreational AR shooter or hunter. $399 vs. $89 is a big jump, too.
ny32182
Member
The design is rather different than a Sig. Both upper and lower. They both shoot 5.56, and that is where the similarities end. The XCR is a "clean sheet" design, with inspiration from several platforms (AK, FAL, and AR) but is not a direct descendant of anything, and carries no legacy weaknesses forward.
None of the rifles in this thread have been fielded by any army.
The SCAR has been purchased. There are photos on the net of SF soldiers using it in training. Those guys don't get 6 week trainups like a Reserve unit, they just go. No reason to think they aren't already in Afghanistan.
The Taiwan Army has used a piston AR since about 1975, and it's gone through three versions. There's a neat thread over on arfcom about it. It's difficult to get pics of the internals because of their security regulations. Recent shots seem to picture M4's a lot with their special units. Hmmm.
I don't find some features as necessarily better when included with a rifle. The less the number of lugs, the more pressure they must resist, and the more mass must be localized. A monolithic upper just means rails for mounting lights and potentially free floating the barrel, which aren't necessary, just nice to have. The military standard is 2MOA for a carbine, putting in more money for accuracy is only getting an incremental result, not a whopping improvement. The mono upper does help in making the assembly a quick change barrel setup - which is nice for special units. The average soldier won't see another barrel in his load, and won't get to swap out. He'll just work with his SDM or the entry team members and play his role, as he does now.
The SCAR requirements for SF use aren't guaranteed to be the COTS carbine trial requirements, which may be a lot simpler. This summers shoot offs will be interesting.
The Taiwan Army has used a piston AR since about 1975, and it's gone through three versions. There's a neat thread over on arfcom about it. It's difficult to get pics of the internals because of their security regulations. Recent shots seem to picture M4's a lot with their special units. Hmmm.
I don't find some features as necessarily better when included with a rifle. The less the number of lugs, the more pressure they must resist, and the more mass must be localized. A monolithic upper just means rails for mounting lights and potentially free floating the barrel, which aren't necessary, just nice to have. The military standard is 2MOA for a carbine, putting in more money for accuracy is only getting an incremental result, not a whopping improvement. The mono upper does help in making the assembly a quick change barrel setup - which is nice for special units. The average soldier won't see another barrel in his load, and won't get to swap out. He'll just work with his SDM or the entry team members and play his role, as he does now.
The SCAR requirements for SF use aren't guaranteed to be the COTS carbine trial requirements, which may be a lot simpler. This summers shoot offs will be interesting.
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