Who do I direct my anger to

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Today as I am walking along, I run into a homeless veteran. Now I am a college student, I have never served in the military, so when I see a veteran in need, I do my best. My family and friends have a lot of military experience so I know how much it means to them. Now the man shows me his medic alert bracelet that says he needs insulin. Already I feel bad enough. Now, I know this man can easily go off and by crack or booze or something, but I am willing to gamble he wanted food. He was coherant and held a decent conversation for 5 minutes. Apparently he was a Marine during the Vietnam War. Who do I get mad at here? The federal government? I am sharing this because I feel it has a political background. Is the govt doing enough for homeless vets and vets in general?

I know these threads are supposed to be about 2a rights etc. But I feel this has relevance. If a moderator doesnt, then please shut it down.

 

[WT]

What makes you believe his is a veteran? Because he said so??? Lots of guys lie about being veterans.

If he needs insulin he can walk into the nearest emergency room and pass out. NJ law requires that the ER treat him, regardless of insurance status. Additionally the ER will do a background on him and if he is truly a veteran then arrangements will be made to get him assistance.

Methinks the guy is trying to scam you.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Why not do something for him personally? Provide work or shelter or food...

If he was a volunteer, why should the government do anything beyond thatever contractual agreement they had when he enlisted?

If there wasn't a voluntary contractual agreement and he was pressed into service by force (did Marines do that, or only the army?), then I can see an argument for taking care of those whose life was messed by by government actions.

 

[spacemanspiff]

not to sound heartless, but when i see someone with a sign announcing they are a homeless veteran, i dont feel that sorry for them.

there are programs run by the city (or state, i forget which) that will house, feed, and take care of veterans medical needs. in exchange, the veterans do have to live in a facility that is kind of a halfway house, they have curfews to abide by, and visitors are limited. its supposed to help veterans who have fallen on to hard times and are willing to work at getting back on their feet.

for that matter, there are also many programs for any and all homeless, they dont NEED to stand on street corners asking for handouts, they can get fed and housed, they just have to stay sober.

 

[Camp David]

... the man shows me his medic alert bracelet that says he needs insulin...

Says he needs cash or needs insulin? It makes a big difference! The VA provides veterans and all armed forces personnel insulin (and any other drug and/or medication) through facilities across the nation. It spends a fortune to do so. I second WT's comments... sadly there are a lot of homeless out there using the "I'm a Vet" speech as a come on...

There are far too many VA sites and programs for someone to legitimately say they cannot get medication they deserve and just becuase he has a medic alert bracelet means nothing... I would assume he wants wine or beer or a pack of cigarettes...

 

[WT]

Oleg - the Marines also drafted during the Vietnam War.

DBMF - the Veteran's Administration has out-patient clinics for veterans in just about every county in NJ.

 

[FPrice]

Apparently he was a Marine during the Vietnam War. Who do I get mad at here?

Maybe at him?

Why is he in this condition? Did the government do this to him? Or did he do it to himself (not the diabetes, the homelessness).

Is the government responsible to take care of you or are you responsible to take care of yourself?

It's just too easy to try to "get mad" at some faceless entity for perceived injustices while it is much harder to hold a person responsible for not taking care of themselves.

Now, before some "bleeding heart" tries to accuse me of being heartless and unresponsive to people who are down on their luck, let me say that we, as a society, should provide some sort of assistance to those who have been overwhelmed by misfortune or bad luck. But this should only be temporary. At some point people need to realize that they need to take the initiative and pull themselves up.

I've needed help in the past. I took it and then found a way to get my life back on track. And I willing give to those organizations who try to help people in need.

The main exception I could see to this policy is for someone who absolutely (through severe physical or mental problems) could not take care of themselves for more than very short periods of time. Then we as a society need to care for these people.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Unfortunately, from a perspective of compassion, there is no duty, express or implied for the government, or anyone else to provide anyone with homes.

For 99.5% of people, working one's way back from nothing is hard (!), but doable. It's a heck of a lot easier to stay on track, though, and self destructive choices have a whole lot to do with why most get off track.

As for the other .5%, those whose minds or bodies are so shattered that there's no realistic chance, we gotta figure out what societies duty to them is, and what the best mechanism is for attending to that.

 

[El Tejon]

As someone who has worked for a fair number of "homeless veterans" over the years, the best test of authenticity is "oh, yeah, I was in too, where were you stationed and with whom?"

Have only met one. But he wasn't exactly homeless, just transient and would intentionally sleep in homeless shelters and the like. Would weld in the North from March to November and then leave for Georgia or Florida rest of year.

He comes over to talk when I am out exercising on the bridge at lunch where the Greyhound station is. No family, no woman, no real friends, just a drifter. Said he was saving his money to buy a place in the hills south of me.

It's a strange world, but that's what makes it great.

 

[Manedwolf]

Maybe at him?

Why is he in this condition? Did the government do this to him? Or did he do it to himself (not the diabetes, the homelessness).

Is the government responsible to take care of you or are you responsible to take care of yourself?

It's just too easy to try to "get mad" at some faceless entity for perceived injustices while it is much harder to hold a person responsible for not taking care of themselves.

Now, before some "bleeding heart" tries to accuse me of being heartless and unresponsive to people who are down on their luck, let me say that we, as a society, should provide some sort of assistance to those who have been overwhelmed by misfortune or bad luck. But this should only be temporary. At some point people need to realize that they need to take the initiative and pull themselves up.

I've needed help in the past. I took it and then found a way to get my life back on track. And I willing give to those organizations who try to help people in need.

The main exception I could see to this policy is for someone who absolutely (through severe physical or mental problems) could not take care of themselves for more than very short periods of time. Then we as a society need to care for these people.

Just a little fact, the Romans gave their soldiers, both active and retired, THE best medical care in the Empire. The best hospitals were military hospitals. Soldiers who survived their military careers were generally, along with the very wealthy, the healthiest and longest-lived citizens.

And that whole "government doesn't take care of you" thing can be taken a bit too far, especially where DISABLED vets are concerned...who can't work, can't hold a "regular job", yet still don't get what a grateful country should give them for their sacrifice.

 

[Biker]

Says he needs cash or needs insulin? It makes a big difference! The VA provides veterans and all armed forces personnel insulin (and any other drug and/or medication) through facilities across the nation. It spends a fortune to do so. I second WT's comments... sadly there are a lot of homeless out there using the "I'm a Vet" speech as a come on...

There are far too many VA sites and programs for someone to legitimately say they cannot get medication they deserve and just becuase he has a medic alert bracelet means nothing... I would assume he wants wine or beer or a pack of cigarettes...

After I first became ill, it took 19 months to get my first appointment at a VA Hospital nearly 200 miles away. Some very beneficial meds aren't prescribed for me because the VA says that they are too expensive. I'm not necessarily bitching, just tellin' it like it is. Don't believe everything you read.

Biker

 

[Technosavant]

The Vietnam War has been over for 30 years. Did the guy look 50+?

Besides, I am not trying to sound heartless (and I have great respect for veterans), but 30 years is plenty long enough to get your crap together. If you can't manage to become a productive citizen with all the programs our government has, I find it difficult to muster much sympathy.

Beggars and other losers tend to use the same stories. "Vietnam vet" is one that has worked for years. You can buy those bracelets at any pharmacy- $5 is a small price to pay for something that will repay many times over in guilt-ridden donations. Many of these guys are fairly articulate and can give a great sob story, filled with all kinds of disaster (usually with a couple of self-inflicted issues, which he is trying to overcome). Some of them make big money just sitting at intersections asking for cash (to the tune of $60,000+/year).

I hate to say it, but I think you have been had- big time.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Why not do something for him personally? Provide work or shelter or food...

If he was a volunteer, why should the government do anything beyond thatever contractual agreement they had when he enlisted?

If there wasn't a voluntary contractual agreement and he was pressed into service by force (did Marines do that, or only the army?), then I can see an argument for taking care of those whose life was messed by by government actions.

During the height of the Vietnam "conflict," some unfortunate people were drafted into the Marines, although it was rare.

The real crime, though, Oleg, is that when we were in the military back then we were told that the Government would always take care of us at VA hospitals, for the rest of our lives.

They lied. Can you believe that?

 

[Hypnogator]

I was in the Army during the Vietnam era -- and the first gulf war era, and all of the little scrapes in between. (Was in Panama doing sneaky stuff on Noriega's phone system, but that's another story.)

Today, too, I'm "homeless" in a way -- I live in a luxury motorhome, and have a moderately successful business providing training to law enforcement and armed private security agencies. I took the choices I made (and had made for me) in the military and built on them to provide a career for me, and the knowledge base for a second career. I don't feel sorry for myself, and don't expect anyone else to feel sorry for me, either.

Your marine could have done the same, if he'd chosen to. The only excuse for his homelessness/poverty today is either his inability/unwillingness to find and hold a decent job, or, if he suffers from severe PTSD due to his Vietnam experiences, his unwillingness to seek treatment from VA.

Oh, BTW, if he does suffer from PTSD, you can blame the peaceniks and other "progressives" who spat on and ostracized our troops when they returned from Vietnam.

 

[Manedwolf]

Besides, I am not trying to sound heartless (and I have great respect for veterans), but 30 years is plenty long enough to get your crap together. If you can't manage to become a productive citizen with all the programs our government has, I find it difficult to muster much sympathy.

If you aren't missing more than one limb, yes. Even now, coming back from Iraq, there's multiple-amputee vets, there's vets who have to wear a colostomy bag for the rest of their lives because they took IED shrapnel or shots in the gut, people who will be forever short of breath because of having less lung, now...

 

[Manedwolf]

Your marine could have done the same, if he'd chosen to. The only excuse for his homelessness/poverty today is either his inability/unwillingness to find and hold a decent job, or, if he suffers from severe PTSD due to his Vietnam experiences, his unwillingness to seek treatment from VA.

Damn. Applying harsh social Darwinism to a veteran, that's about as cold as you can get.

 

[Technosavant]

If you aren't missing more than one limb, yes. Even now, coming back from Iraq, there's multiple-amputee vets, there's vets who have to wear a colostomy bag for the rest of their lives because they took IED shrapnel or shots in the gut, people who will be forever short of breath because of having less lung, now...

Granted. But those aren't the guys I see begging for money.

You keep assuming that this guy is a veteran "because he said so." The fact is, these beggars are, 99% of the time, accomplished liars. They are playing on the guilt of Americans for how Vietnam vets were treated 30 years ago, and the respect most Americans have for vets today.

Most of these guys who beg for cash based on supposed time served in the military usually never served a day in uniform.

 

[Biker]

Granted. But those aren't the guys I see begging for money.

You keep assuming that this guy is a veteran "because he said so." The fact is, these beggars are, 99% of the time, accomplished liars. They are playing on the guilt of Americans for how Vietnam vets were treated 30 years ago, and the respect most Americans have for vets today.

Most of these guys who beg for cash based on supposed time served in the military usually never served a day in uniform.

Could be you're right, but can you back those assertions up with facts of any kind?
Biker

 

[One of Many]

My Uncle, an Army veteran of WW2, became mentally ill in old age, and my Aunt could no loger provide the care for him that he requires. It took the services of a lawyer, before my Aunt was able to get the Veterans Administration to place him in an appropriate care facility.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Is the govt doing enough for homeless vets and vets in general?

Bums are not a government problem. Veterans are if their infirmities are the result of service to the nation.

 

[Technosavant]

Could be you're right, but can you back those assertions up with facts of any kind?
Biker

Maybe every single one that has come knocking on the door of or calling my church, asking for money? It gets humorous when they forget which churches they have hit up, so they show up a year later with the same story. You remember them, but they don't remember you.

There have been news stories around here of people who have followed these people who stand at highway exits; at the end of the day they go hop in their new Cadillac in the commuter lot. Remember; they don't pay taxes on the cash they pull in.

 

[Biker]

Maybe every single one that has come knocking on the door of or calling my church, asking for money? It gets humorous when they forget which churches they have hit up, so they show up a year later with the same story. You remember them, but they don't remember you.

There have been news stories around here of people who have followed these people who stand at highway exits; at the end of the day they go hop in their new Cadillac in the commuter lot. Remember; they don't pay taxes on the cash they pull in.

No. It was stated that 99% were faking it. Are some? Sure. But if it is stated that a certain percentage are, especially 99%, I want to see some damn proof.
Biker

 

[C. Rabbit]

I recall one businessman from western WA telling me and my dad of a bum who'd go up to people around the area outside her store (A rather good area, with nice upscale shops) and beg for money. Apparently, as I never got to see her myself, she'd put on a real good show and get close to people.

The kicker, of course, was that she had a nice apartment and pulled in near to 50k a year.

Most of the beggers are lying and probably have never been in the military. If you haven't read Stolen Valour, you should. Exposes a lot of the fraud around fake Vietnam vets.

C. Rabbit

 

[Biker]

Not the point, Rabbit. Surely some are fakes. But to say 99% are, or even most, requires some damn proof. If a man doesn't know what he's talking about, especially if he's defaming some men that don't deserve it, he should keep his teeth together.

Biker

 

[Ralph]

Marines were also drafted

When I was drafted into the service, Detroit 1968, we were in formation and counted off by 2's. The 1's went to the army and the 2's went to the marines.