1858remington
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Have you thought about a 38 super, or 357 sig?
who makes a 9mm +p+ pistol and where can i find ir
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1SOW
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9x19, Luger is the issue for extreme pressures.
JohnBT
Member
"As already stated, MAP for standard 9mm P is 35,000 PSI and +P is 38,500 PSI."
www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-183212.html
"Hirtenberger has produced two types of SMG ammunition. Both were developed on request for the British Ministry Of Defence:
L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it. It was replaced with:
L12A1- This ammunition is substantially similar, but uses a slightly reduced charge in order to stay under the 50,000 PSI NATO maximum pressure specs.
Both of these rounds feature a 124-grain FMJ ball bullet, and produce a maximum velocity of about 1,500 fps.
"
www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-183212.html
"Hirtenberger has produced two types of SMG ammunition. Both were developed on request for the British Ministry Of Defence:
L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it. It was replaced with:
L12A1- This ammunition is substantially similar, but uses a slightly reduced charge in order to stay under the 50,000 PSI NATO maximum pressure specs.
Both of these rounds feature a 124-grain FMJ ball bullet, and produce a maximum velocity of about 1,500 fps.
"
The whole +P+ thing doesn't make much sense to me, since, as others have noted, the only thing it definitely means is that the manufacturer is telling you that it is above specs. It doesn't tell you by how much. A cartridge might be over by 500 PSI or 5,000, or, theoretically, 50,000.
That said, if I were determined to shoot beyond-max-pressure loads in a 10mm firearm, I might try to find one that shared a frame and slide design/size/weight with guns designed to handle more powerful cartridges. But, mainly, I'd just stay away.
That said, if I were determined to shoot beyond-max-pressure loads in a 10mm firearm, I might try to find one that shared a frame and slide design/size/weight with guns designed to handle more powerful cartridges. But, mainly, I'd just stay away.
AK103K
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I shot some of that Hirtenberger, although Im not sure which version of it. My buddy got a couple of cases out of SGN when it was around. I didnt find it to be as hot as the Spanish stuff I had, but I dont have anything scientific to go by, just how the gun felt and acted when it was fired.
At the same time, I never fired it or the Spanish stuff, or any of the other SMG ammo we got in my MP5, since I wasnt going to put it at risk. I didnt shoot corrosive or reloads in it either. One factory round that was interesting, was a case of IMI "black tip" carbine 9mm I had back in the late 80's, early 90's. It was the only ammo I fired in the MP5 that actually started to fire form the chamber flutes into the brass. With most ammo, scratches were normal, with this ammo, there were actually raised "ribs" in the recovered brass. It didnt feel any different than Now that I think of it, I wish I had fired a couple of rounds of the "hot" stuff, just to see what the brass looked like afterwards. I did shoot a bunch of federal +P+ 9mm out of it, and it just left the normall scratches in the brass.
One interesting thing with the IMI black tip, Glock sent a letter around to dealers back in the late 80's recommending it in the 17's, as there were some problems with function with some of the "standard" powered 9mm at the time.
In case you ever come across any, this is a box of the hot Spanish ammo that tore up the MAC. It came packed in 2000 round wood crates.
Another batch of stuff you'll want to stay away from is Egyptian SMG ammo that was apparently packed (36 rounds to the box) for their Port Said copy of the Swedish M45. It wasnt really all that hot, but it was corrosive as hell, and actually the most corrosive stuff Ive ever seen. The one time I didnt clean the gun right away, its chamber area, barrel, and muzzle, were covered in a light, bright orange rust by the next morning. This stuff also came packed in a wood crate with a tin spam can lining.
At the same time, I never fired it or the Spanish stuff, or any of the other SMG ammo we got in my MP5, since I wasnt going to put it at risk. I didnt shoot corrosive or reloads in it either. One factory round that was interesting, was a case of IMI "black tip" carbine 9mm I had back in the late 80's, early 90's. It was the only ammo I fired in the MP5 that actually started to fire form the chamber flutes into the brass. With most ammo, scratches were normal, with this ammo, there were actually raised "ribs" in the recovered brass. It didnt feel any different than Now that I think of it, I wish I had fired a couple of rounds of the "hot" stuff, just to see what the brass looked like afterwards. I did shoot a bunch of federal +P+ 9mm out of it, and it just left the normall scratches in the brass.
One interesting thing with the IMI black tip, Glock sent a letter around to dealers back in the late 80's recommending it in the 17's, as there were some problems with function with some of the "standard" powered 9mm at the time.
In case you ever come across any, this is a box of the hot Spanish ammo that tore up the MAC. It came packed in 2000 round wood crates.
Another batch of stuff you'll want to stay away from is Egyptian SMG ammo that was apparently packed (36 rounds to the box) for their Port Said copy of the Swedish M45. It wasnt really all that hot, but it was corrosive as hell, and actually the most corrosive stuff Ive ever seen. The one time I didnt clean the gun right away, its chamber area, barrel, and muzzle, were covered in a light, bright orange rust by the next morning. This stuff also came packed in a wood crate with a tin spam can lining.
SouthernBoy
Member
You might want to check that. I called Kahr a few years back and they were adamant against using +P+ loads in their handguns.
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dondavis3
Member
Almost all Sig Sauers a +P rated.
But most manufacturers suggest using +P ammo sparingly.
But most manufacturers suggest using +P ammo sparingly.
orionengnr
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IIRC, +p is 10% over a SAAMI load.
+p+ is "something over that", and is undefined.
I can't imagine how or why any pistol manufacturer would state that their guns will hold up under an "anything goes" load.
I do know that my Kahr PM9 has held up under limited use of +p and +p+ loads, and i have read that others have the same experience.
I did not and will not try to blow it up, but have put 200+ rounds of +p and probably the same number of +p+ rounds through it, and carried it every day for about 3 1/2 years with +p+ ammo.
It shows no signs of wear, and still functions perfectly. Although I carry a larger pistol these days, the PM9 is loaded in the safe and ready, and it's not for sale
+p+ is "something over that", and is undefined.
I can't imagine how or why any pistol manufacturer would state that their guns will hold up under an "anything goes" load.
I do know that my Kahr PM9 has held up under limited use of +p and +p+ loads, and i have read that others have the same experience.
I did not and will not try to blow it up, but have put 200+ rounds of +p and probably the same number of +p+ rounds through it, and carried it every day for about 3 1/2 years with +p+ ammo.
It shows no signs of wear, and still functions perfectly. Although I carry a larger pistol these days, the PM9 is loaded in the safe and ready, and it's not for sale
qcsmitty
Member
My point exactly. Why take the risk? Are we not at an adequate velocity with +p rounds? I would expect to only have to engage a perp in SD from within 10 yds, God forbid. My std pressure 147g Fed HST will expand and penetrate adequately for me.
MachIVshooter
Member
An electrical current only has to exceed the fuse rating "briefly and not by a whole lot" to blow it.
Some guns can take it, others can't. If you really need that extra oomph, buy a .40 instead. Or a 9x21, if you handload.
evan price
Member
Comparing CUP to PSI won't work.
The copper crushers only record the spike that they can; meaning it takes time for the crusher to crush. If the spike is very fast and drops before the crusher crushes all the way you get false low readings. The crusher just isn't fast enough to ride the pulse in real time. The piezo transducers hooked to an oscilliscope are fast enough and they will show the real high peak of the pulse. That's why a lot of previously "safe" loads developed back with CUP were discovered to actually exceed the limit when re-measured with modern equipment and PSI.
The copper crushers only record the spike that they can; meaning it takes time for the crusher to crush. If the spike is very fast and drops before the crusher crushes all the way you get false low readings. The crusher just isn't fast enough to ride the pulse in real time. The piezo transducers hooked to an oscilliscope are fast enough and they will show the real high peak of the pulse. That's why a lot of previously "safe" loads developed back with CUP were discovered to actually exceed the limit when re-measured with modern equipment and PSI.
Powerful or effective?
147 HST or Ranger-T, standard or +P for HST, are about as good as it gets.
Trying to milk more 'power' out of a service caliber defensive pistol is a mistake. The best available bullets don't generally come loaded to redline levels, and the difference in speed or energy is objectively of no real benefit. Any well-designed bullet loaded within normal full power levels is plenty good. Obviously you wouldn't want a competition-designed accuracy JHP loaded to target levels, but any good defense/duty JHP loaded normally or warmish will be great.
Gold Dots are great too, and the PDX appears to be a very good bullet as well. 124 or 147 is all I'd carry, unless it was the DPX. Too expensive for what it delivers to me though. Rather pay half or a third the cost and get 147+P HSTs.
147 HST or Ranger-T, standard or +P for HST, are about as good as it gets.
Trying to milk more 'power' out of a service caliber defensive pistol is a mistake. The best available bullets don't generally come loaded to redline levels, and the difference in speed or energy is objectively of no real benefit. Any well-designed bullet loaded within normal full power levels is plenty good. Obviously you wouldn't want a competition-designed accuracy JHP loaded to target levels, but any good defense/duty JHP loaded normally or warmish will be great.
Gold Dots are great too, and the PDX appears to be a very good bullet as well. 124 or 147 is all I'd carry, unless it was the DPX. Too expensive for what it delivers to me though. Rather pay half or a third the cost and get 147+P HSTs.
SouthernBoy
Member
I favor Federal HST in both 124 and 147 grain weights in their +P configuration, or the Gold Dot 124gr +P (53617) which is my currently carried load in this caliber.
As for pressure ratings for 9mm, here is what I have found (in psi ratings);
Standard: 35,000 psi
NATO: 36,500 psi
+P: 38,500 psi
+P+: 42,000 psi (no SAAMI specs)
No bullet weights were given for these ratings.
As for pressure ratings for 9mm, here is what I have found (in psi ratings);
Standard: 35,000 psi
NATO: 36,500 psi
+P: 38,500 psi
+P+: 42,000 psi (no SAAMI specs)
No bullet weights were given for these ratings.
1SOW
Member
HUH?
A little contradiction there. You're going to confuse the masses.You were doing well up to this point.
exavid
Member
One thing I noticed right away when I got my Ruger P345 was the statement that it can handle all currently manufactured .45ACP ammo.
The Ruger P-Series pistols are compatible with all factory ammunition of the
correct caliber loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including high-velocity and
hollow-point loads, loaded in brass, aluminum, or steel cartridge cases. No .45
Auto ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP
standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in
these pistols
Basically the same rating for the LC9:
The RUGER® LC9TM pistols are compatible with standard factory ammunition
loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including hollow-point loads loaded in brass
or aluminum cases. No 9mm ammunition manufactured in accordance with
NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or
known not to function in these pistols.
They do state not to use +P+ ammo. Since there is no standard pressure or standard for that rating it makes sense they'd not approve it for their pistols. I don't see how any manufacturer could approve use of such an open ended rating for their guns.
The Ruger P-Series pistols are compatible with all factory ammunition of the
correct caliber loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including high-velocity and
hollow-point loads, loaded in brass, aluminum, or steel cartridge cases. No .45
Auto ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP
standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in
these pistols
Basically the same rating for the LC9:
The RUGER® LC9TM pistols are compatible with standard factory ammunition
loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including hollow-point loads loaded in brass
or aluminum cases. No 9mm ammunition manufactured in accordance with
NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or
known not to function in these pistols.
They do state not to use +P+ ammo. Since there is no standard pressure or standard for that rating it makes sense they'd not approve it for their pistols. I don't see how any manufacturer could approve use of such an open ended rating for their guns.
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Obviously some are hung up on the +p+ designation.
They probably shouldn't use any.
If your guns are old, or tiny or weak... do we need to tell you not to shoot +p+?
I wouldn't put this stuff in my Kel Tec... Duh...
The +p+ 9mm, as mentioned in numerous posts in this thread, can be an excellent, effective, highly affordable choice of ammunition.
I bought 5 boxes (250 rounds) of the Winchester Ranger T 127 grain +p+ for $135 plus shipping just a few months ago.
That's 54 cents a round for a well established, street tested, highly accurate self defense cartridge made by a reputable US manufacturer.
How ya gonna beat that?
I was already running Winchester PDX1 +p in my 9mm's, so reliability testing wasn't really an issue... I ran a magazine each through my CZ 75b and my XD just to make sure it shot near point of aim... I was well pleased with the results... then I packed the rest away in my ammo cache.
Since I handload my everyday range ammo, I figure I've probably got a lifetime supply.
If you'd rather pay more for less... knock yourself out.
They probably shouldn't use any.
If your guns are old, or tiny or weak... do we need to tell you not to shoot +p+?
I wouldn't put this stuff in my Kel Tec... Duh...
The +p+ 9mm, as mentioned in numerous posts in this thread, can be an excellent, effective, highly affordable choice of ammunition.
I bought 5 boxes (250 rounds) of the Winchester Ranger T 127 grain +p+ for $135 plus shipping just a few months ago.
That's 54 cents a round for a well established, street tested, highly accurate self defense cartridge made by a reputable US manufacturer.
How ya gonna beat that?
I was already running Winchester PDX1 +p in my 9mm's, so reliability testing wasn't really an issue... I ran a magazine each through my CZ 75b and my XD just to make sure it shot near point of aim... I was well pleased with the results... then I packed the rest away in my ammo cache.
Since I handload my everyday range ammo, I figure I've probably got a lifetime supply.
If you'd rather pay more for less... knock yourself out.
JRH6856
Member
250 rounds? I guess so. For purely self-defense purposes, 25 rounds would probably be a lifetime supply for most people.
JohnBT
Member
"The +p+ 9mm, as mentioned in numerous posts in this thread, can be an excellent, effective, highly affordable choice of ammunition."
Or it can ruin a gun. There is no upper pressure limit on +P+ ammo; it just means it's higher than +P. How much higher is the question. You're using it at your own risk and trusting the manufacturer to not go way overboard on the load.
John
Or it can ruin a gun. There is no upper pressure limit on +P+ ammo; it just means it's higher than +P. How much higher is the question. You're using it at your own risk and trusting the manufacturer to not go way overboard on the load.
John
SouthernBoy
Member
How so? What did I miss?
JRH6856
Member
You can't say that +P+ is rated at 42,000psi and then say that there are no SAMMI specs. That is contradictory since SAMMI is the body that does the ratings.
exavid
Member
That's the whole point of this thread, there's no upper limit on +p+ ammo. None. The term is basically meaningless other than to say it's greater than +p. How much greater no one can really say because there's no standard. A +p load with an additional tenth of a grain of powder could be called +p+ but that wouldn't mean much. Alternatively the round could be so high pressure that it would go Kaboom.
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