9mm NATO vs. +P and standard pressure 9mm; Anyone knowledgable

[peacebutready]

Greetings,

The 9mm NATO is of higher pressure than standard pressure 9mm. I know some people consider it like 9mm +P. Does anyone know almost exactly where it resides? Is it close to the equal of +P? Or is it somewhere between standard and +P pressure?

Happy Holidays.

 

[HOOfan_1]

9mm standard max pressure is 35000 PSI
9mm +P max pressure is 38500 PSI
9mm NATO specs are probably on a type by type basis. I've seen 36500 PSI listed...but that might be for a specific round.

 

[Water-Man]

9MM NATO is above +P but not by much.

 

[Steve C]

If you are talking about US mil spec 9mm 124gr with the NATO cross then you would need the actual specification to determine if it is SAAMI standard or +P pressure. Just because it has a higher velocity than the typical factory US loading does not mean that is is +P as there are many powders you can use to push a 124 or 125gr bullets faster than +P US factory loads but not exceed standard pressure using available hand load data.

If you are referring to a foreign loaded NATO round then all bets are off. Some foreign loads (mostly European) are loaded to the CIP pressure standards with different testing procedures and would often test in the +P range if tested using SAAMI specification methods.

Israel is known to load their SMG ammo at very high pressures. This ammo is intended to be used strictly in SMG's rather than handguns. This ammo will usually have a black painted bullet tip.

 

[easyg]

9MM NATO is above +P but not by much.

Not necessarily.
Just because it says NATO on the box, that does not mean it is more powerful than standard 9mm ammo.
And it is often weaker than 9mm+P.


Per Winchester's data:

Winchester 9mm NATO 124g FMJ
Muzzle velocity = 1140 fps.
Muzzle energy = 358 ft. lbs.

Winchester white box 124g FMJ
Muzzle velocity = 1140 fps.
muzzle energy = 358 ft. lbs.

Winchester PDX1 +P 124g JHP
Muzzle velocity = ?
Muzzle energy = 396 ft. lbs.


Per Speer's data:

Speer Gold Dot JHP 124g
Muzzle velocity = 1150 fps.
Muzzle energy = 364 ft. lbs.

Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 124g
Muzzle velocity = 1220 fps.
Muzzle energy = 410 ft. lbs.

 

[Luger_carbine]

9mm standard max pressure is 35,001 psi

124gr 9mm NATO max pressure is 36,500 psi

9mm +P max pressure is 38,500 psi

 

[kvtcomdo]

Nato 9mm has to work in everything Nato may use.

Because of this the pressures must be greater than standard.

 

[peacebutready]

SAAMI vs. European measuring

9mm standard max pressure is 35,001 psi

124gr 9mm NATO max pressure is 36,500 psi

9mm +P max pressure is 38,500 psi

Thanks. Another thing is SAAMI pressures are different from other European methods of measuring pressures. Is the above NATO pressure from measuring it the way SAAMI does?

Cheers

 

[ATLDave]

One thing that often confuses people is what +P means. It means "above standard pressure." And, for those cartridges with an actual SAAMI +P spec, at or below the +P spec. For such cartridges, all "+P" means is that the pressure falls within that window. It does not mean that it is at the top of that window, any more than non-+P ammo will consistently be at the very top of the standard pressure limit.

So there is simply no way to say whether NATO rounds, which have their pressure limit in the middle of the +P window, are hotter or softer than +P rounds. Because it depends entirely on which round you're talking about.

 

[LeftyTSGC]

Hope this is useful, This is what i found in the TM. 9mm Ball for M9 only not for SMG

9MM Ball, 124gr
Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ..............................................1.4S
Storage code .................................... Class V
DOT shipping class ..........................C
DOT designation ..............................SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number................................9345211
References:
SB 700-20
TM 9-1300-206

 

[481]

Hope this is useful, This is what i found in the TM. 9mm Ball for M9 only not for SMG

9MM Ball, 124gr
Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ..............................................1.4S
Storage code .................................... Class V
DOT shipping class ..........................C
DOT designation ..............................SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number................................9345211
References:
SB 700-20
TM 9-1300-206

For the velocity claimed, even from the 4.9" barrel of the M9, that is a much lower average pressure than I would have expected.

Must be a powder burn-rate thing...

 

[M1key]

OP: Why do you want to know?

NATO and +P are virtually the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm_NATO

M

 

[jonnyc]

"Israel is known to load their SMG ammo at very high pressures. This ammo is intended to be used strictly in SMG's rather than handguns. This ammo will usually have a black painted bullet tip."

Not quite true. While Israeli 9mmP with a black tip is a carbine/SMG loading, just about any Israeli milsurp that is not specifically marked For Pistol Use, will be loaded hot for the Uzi.

 

[me26245]

According to Cartridges of the World 8th edition

Cartridge, Caliber 9mm. Ball, NATO, M882
Velocity: 1251 +/- 25 fps at 16 meters
Pressure: 27,000 psi, max. avg.

In cronographing factory and reloaded ammunition the only factory NATO spec ammunition I've found to run close to the required velocity has been Danish surplus.

I've been able to duplicate the required velocity without pressure signs using AA#7/ Wolf SPP, but it's way overloaded per the Accurate manual IIRC.

Info taken from Wikipedia:

The 9 mm cartridge has been manufactured by, or for, more than 70 different countries and has become a standard pistol caliber for NATO and other military forces around the world. Its official nomenclature among NATO users is "9 mm NATO". The 9 mm NATO can be considered as an overpressure variant of the 9×19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[26] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) where C.I.P. rates the 9 mm Luger PTmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,100 psi). The 315 MPa (45,700 psi) proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm NATO proof test however equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm Luger C.I.P. proof test.

 

[Ben86]

Although the pressures for 9mm NATO are listed higher than standard 9mm ammo, the NATO velocity often doesn't live up to the hype. From what I have seen it most often is in the 1150-1180fps range from a 4" barrel. Not to impressive when standard 124 grain 9mm is often 1150fps and 1200fps for +P ammo. Not all 9mm NATO is the same, some of the foreign stuff is loaded appreciably hotter.

IMO it's hardly better than standard FMJ for the most part. Unless I find a great deal on some I usually pass.

 

[peacebutready]

OP: Why do you want to know?

NATO and +P are virtually the same.

I think a good number of people out there think of them as +P. I was curious of their pressure relative to standard and +P.

 

[M1key]

Fair enough

M

 

[Edarnold]

Two factors are a bullet design that leaves the maximum powder space for the bullet weight, and a short bearing surface, which would both reduce max pressure. The NATO bullet can use the maximum OAL because it fits the leade that has been pretty much standard in the 9x19 round. The truncated cone design of HP designs like the XTP forces a shorter OAL, which in turn reduces powder space and results in the anemic velocities from loads like the Critical Defense.

 

[Ben86]

The truncated cone design of HP designs like the XTP forces a shorter OAL, which in turn reduces powder space and results in the anemic velocities from loads like the Critical Defense.

Although HP design does reduce powder space, many loads still have proper +P velocities. I don't see it as an excuse for low velocities.

Critical defense is fantastically slight on velocity though.

 

[C0untZer0]

Underwood manages to take a 147gr Gold Dot and get it going 1150 fps out of a 4" barrel. +P+

 

[Ben86]

Underwood ammo is amazing. It brings 9mm closer to .357 territory. 124 grains doing 1300fps makes .357 sig look somewhat superfluous.

I just wish they would have it in stock more often so I could get some.

 

[Bovice]

I've read tons of criteria for "NATO spec" 9 mm and it seems cryptic to me. If we assume the 1200-something fps is a 124 grain, that's one hell of a round. Most of my 124s shoot high 1000s to maybe 1100. I don't think a FMJ needs more than that. Most HP bullets at that weight will work fine at that speed.

 

[JERRY]

Bovice, you are correct, 124gr. @ 1,200 fps.

 

[peacebutready]

Underwood manages to take a 147gr Gold Dot and get it going 1150 fps out of a 4" barrel. +P+

I'm curious how rough those loads are on a good, strong pistol like the Beretta or CZ, assuming you have the right recoil spring in.

 

[C0untZer0]

Most HP bullets at that weight will work fine at that speed

Do you mean penetration and expansion?

If so, that is not NATO's primary concern.

The primary concern is that any 9mm NATO round will work in any 9mm firearm - from handgun to sub-machine gun.