Whole Lotta Leadin' Goin' On (probably more than you think)

[243winxb]

Accuracy stayed the same-Not real leading.

Slugged bore @ .451" 45 acp 5.0Gr 700X Lyman 200gr BB tumble lubed with Xlox. .4515" to .452" as dropped from the mold. Alloy scrap 75%WW rest pure lead, a guess. Oven heat treated @ 450 for 1 hr. then put into tap water. Thumb nail test shows bullets to be very hard. Leading is the same 40 thru 140 rounds. Accuracy did not change during test. Air cooled cast bullets sized in Lyman 450 are more accurate and lead a lot less. I knew these might lead, but wanted to see if accurace fell off. It did not. Bore cleaned up easily with Hoppe's # 9 and light brushing.

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[243winxb]

This would be real leading

Not my photos. I have seen accuracy go in 3 handguns. The cause for one, was a .354" groove in a Colt Python using 148gr swaged .358" wadcutter. A 22 LR in S&W M17 revolver* with Rem. promo ammo formed a ring just past the leade, in the rifling. Didn't believe it. Cleaned gun and refired, watching lead ring build. Accuracy went away. The Ruger 357 had a barrel defect. Soft alloy in a 45 acp will have lead pushed to the bullets base by the lands, deforming the base. This does not happen with a harder alloy or a bevel base bullet.

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG] Photos of 45 acp.

 

[spitballer]

Until you get the bores of those guns cleaned you will get leading...

I am inclined to agree with this fundamental statement, however I have no experience shooting cast bullets, and most of my experience is with rifles. I do know that new rifle barrels collect a lot of fouling until they are worn smooth and sometimes that extra fouling actually increases accuracy under certain conditions. making it hard to understand why smoother is better in the long run. I would think a smooth barrel (and the role of soft fouling) would be even more important in the case of softer cast bullets, but again most of my experience is with jacketed.

Interesting thread and very much worth reading.

 

[336A]

Bushmaster, I'm not saying that anyone is right wrong or otherwise. I'm doing nothing more than offering up my opinions on this subject as are others that replied. If your not getting any leading with the bullets that you use with your firearms great, but not everyone else is. There a lot of things at play when using a cast so as not to get any leading.

Let me offer up my own experience. The throats on my Ruger .41 magnum BH measure .410" - .4105". Whenever I shoot commercial cast .411" SWCBB bullets I always get leading in the throats from gas cutting due to the beveled base. On the other hand when using a H&G #258 (BHN 15) .411" SWC from Montana Bullet Works there is no leading in the throats.

I even went to the extent of lubing the SWCBB bullets with Lee Liquid Alox to see it that would help. While it did help some it wasn't to any significant degree.

 

[243winxb]

And the 44 mag group while testing. Could not get good photos of the barrel. Looked same as the 45 acp bbl. Cleaned up same.

[/URL][/IMG] I have cast a few bullets.

[/URL][/IMG] Do your own testing, as your results may be different.

 

[TimSr]

I have asked Brad at MBC about this with the 45 ACP 230 gr Soft Ball bullets.

Per his BHN calculator the 18 BHN is way to hard for 45 ACP going 800 fps or less. It is the same as the Magnum bullets.

There is a formula somewhere for what hardness to use for what velocity.

 

[336A]

243 thanks for the informative post.

 

[MEHavey]

There is a formula somewhere....

It is contained in the very definition of Brinell's number (which is literally measures psi to deformation)

BN * 1,420psi is the yield/deformation strength of a material under pressure.

This calculation has a lot of both fans and detractors.
I find it a useful starting point.

 

[shootniron]

I feel for ya...and know where you are coming from.

That is the reason that I cast my bullets, now. I had dismal results using commercial cast bullets. I shoot mostly bigbore revolvers, Ruger and SAA clones...so I had a safe full of guns that I wanted to shoot without having to scrub lead out of them, all of the time. Started to cast my own, years ago, and watched the leading almost completely disappear. I would still get a very small amount with 2 guns after a 100rds or so. Then, I stopped that completely, along with the smoke and soot. I started powder coating...my guns all have mirror bores, all of the time. I tumble lube the PC, dump them onto a non-stick foil(straight from the bowl) cook'em and shoot'em. Life is good...

NEVER...will I go back to conventional lube.

 

[BigBore45]

Why should he? If the bullet is properly sized and has a sufficient lube to begin with like most all are portrayed, it would be a non issue. I put alox on some that I bought and it didn't help to a significant degree,.

if he did this test and reported on the results with detail on where the leading is accuring i.e. the start of the bore or the entire bore i could tell him what is wrong and where to look. im still gonna call this a forcing cone issue since i know most rugers require a different cut/angle to shoot lead without leading. and the smith could very well be the same. i have been down this road with leading, while im no expert i can get a gun to shoot lead with out any leading.

 

[Mauser69]

Part 3 - The pictures and the cleaning

OK, I made a special trip out to the range today just to shoot two sets of MBC 200g COATED bullets - I'm going to deal with these first, just as a special favor to those individuals who are so absofrigginlutely certain that a COATED bullet will NOT leave lead. They do.

To start with, here are a couple of pictures of the barrel of my SBH as it looked before the test - this is exactly as it was after finishing the last test by firing two cylinders of magnum jacketed loads through it to remove all leading. You can see a tinge of copper surface glistening on the edge of the rifling in the breech. That is from the jacketed bullets. There is absolutely no sign of gray lead that I can find anywhere in this barrel at this point.

 

[MEHavey]

It may be my eyes (or my experience), but I see no
leading problems in either of the latter two pics

 

[Mauser69]

Pictures after shooting, but no cleaning

Next we have some pictures of the same gun after shooting 20 rounds of 7.5 grains A#5 behind MBC 200g COATED Cowboy #5 bullets. Note the bore - this is the typical picture we often see someone post after a shooting session where the experts all proclaim "Just a bit of powder fouling - no leading at all!".



After those initial pictures, I quickly ran a brush with solvent through the bore and pushed a clean patch through it to dry it out. See the bit of lead on the patch and another on the towel below it? This barrel is not significantly leaded at this point, as you will see, but there is absolutely no doubt that the COATED bullets left lead in the grooves the full length of the bore.

 

[Mauser69]

Now let's take a look at the bore the way many people do after "cleaning". Bright and shiny, right? Are you one of those people who declare this to not have any lead deposits? If so, then you don't know what to look at.

Take a look now at the breech - all that grey stiff is LEAD! As I have already said, this barrel is not heavily leaded in my opinion, but it IS leaded.


Next I ran a Tornado brush wrapped in a bit of Chore Boy copper scrubber through the bore. Picture is not all that great, but you can see lead on the copper and on the towel.

 

[Mauser69]

Even after scrubbing, Lead remains...

One last picture from the SBH - even after initial scrubbing with the copper strands on the brush, you can still see a bit of the leading remaining at the tip of the muzzle. No way to really see what might be remaining deep in the bore - it just shines too much. Only way to tell if it eventually gets clean is to see when the dark gray streaks stop turning up on a clean patch. I generally stop at this point and accept the little bit of thin lead remaining.

I have similar pictures from the M29 after also shooting coated bullets this morning, but it seems kinda redundant to post them too.

 

[Mauser69]

Part 3b - ths pictures from an ealier test - non-coated bullets

OK, these pictures are from my last test on Saturday - this was one of the faster lead loads with MBC 180g Cowboy #7 BH12 bullets. The gun is the Model 29. I apologize for the poor picture quality, especially those of the bore - the flashlight was just too bright for the camera.

The first pictures are of the gun as it looked right off the range before any cleaning. Looking down the bore from the muzzle, you only see a bit of powder residue - no sign of lead.


I then ran a brush with solvent through the bore to remove the powder, and a couple of quick patches just to dry the solvent out - note the pieces of lead on the patches.

 

[Mauser69]

It is important to use patches to DRY the bore before you actually look for leading, since the light gray deposits do not really show up when they are wet. And anyone who simply looks down the barrel to declare that there is no leading simply do not know what to look for. How clean does this bore look?



Now take a look at the breech!



With a revolver or the barrel out of a semi-auto, you can easily inspect it properly for leading - I don't know how you could ever really see the deposits in a typical rifle unless the lead was in big gobs.

For removing the lead, many people recommend the Lewis Lead Remover. That tool is good, but is simply does NOT remove all the lead - just the heavy stuff. Here is a picture of the screen after use.

 

[Mauser69]

Although looking down the muzzle things look clean, they still are NOT.

After using the Lewis Lead Remover, you can see significant amounts of lead left behind in the grooves - Not real thick, but still all over the place. I have found that no reasonable amount of repeated use of that tool will ever remove the remaining lead - the screen is just not pushed deeply enough into the groves.



A much better option is a copper scrubber wrapped around an old bronze brush, or better yet - a stainless steel Tornado brush.

 

[CraigC]

If so, then you don't know what to look at.

Seems to be a lot of that going around.

Someone is liable to have a stroke if I told how often I clean my bores.

When I say that I don't have issues with leading, that does not mean I don't have lead deposits in my bores. Because I do. It means that I don't have issues with leading. Meaning that the amount is insignificant and doesn't cause accuracy degradation. Nor does it continue to get worse. I don't rigorously clean my bores every time I shoot so I'm able to SEE that the amount is insignificant and does not worsen.

I'm gonna go load another 500rds of .45Colt, so I can pretend to not have any leading when I shoot this week. Then I've got three new guns to load for. Including a .416Rigby that will take a lot of effort to pretend that it doesn't lead either, so I can lie about it on the internet. Not to mention pushing those 335gr LBT's to 1500fps in the .454. I've been shooting the .480 for a number of years so I'm used to pretending that it doesn't lead.

 

[BigBore45]

ok. the forcing cone as i have been saying is either cut wrong or smaller than the bore diameter-or needs polished. Second on your first pics of #3 ( the clean bore before shooting lead) i see copper fouling! at the breach/forcing cone and start of barrel. copper fouling in a barrel will always strip lead and lube from a bullet and cause it to lead the barrel.


also now that i see the copper fouling i would check the timing on the revolver. and cylinder lockup.

 

[CraigC]

I have used primarily only three different bullets in the .44s, all from Missouri Bullet Company: 180 grain RNFP Cowboy #7 (BH12), 200 grain coated RNFP Cowboy #5 (BH12), and 240 grain SWC Keith (BH18).

That's not a Keith bullet. It's a bevel base generic SWC.

 

[Mauser69]

Last pictures from Part 3

Here's a picture of a well worn bronze brush wrapped in copper scrubber. I used this for a number of passes through the bore, but you can see how much lead remained.




Then I switched to a stainless steel Tornado brush with copper scrubber - this works much better since it holds more pressure against the bore. The Tornado brush is woven in loops with no sharp ends to scratch the bore. Here is a picture of the Tornado brush and all the little flakes of lead around the breech that it brushed out.




Scrubbing on the lead works best when the bore is DRY - solvent only acts like a lubricant to prevent the copper strands from scraping off the lead. After each scrubbing, then use a brush and solvent, followed by dry patches to reveal any lead that might still be remaining.

One final note about lead removing - others have already noted in this thread that no solvent really does much to remove it - I completely agree. But there IS one liquid that will remove it quickly and easily. HOWEVER, be forewarned that it is very dangerous, both to YOU and probably your gun!!!!

The magic soup is 50/50 white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. It creates an acid that quickly eats lead, and within 20 minutes or so, the residue can be brushed right out. BUT HEED THESE WARNINGS:

1. After use, the liquid is an extremely poisonous lead compound! Don't touch it or dispose of it in any way other than as a toxic waste!
2. The liquid will destroy a blued finish on your gun. ONLY safe on stainless steel.
3. The liquid will eat right through a hard chrome lining that you find on some barrels! Trust me, do NOT try to use this stuff unless you are sure you are dealing with stainless steel!!!!

If you do try it, be sure to wear rubber gloves, and neutralize the remaining acid on your gun with copious amounts of fresh hard water. And remember, the acidic properties of the liquid can be neutralized with a base, but the LEAD is the poisonous stuff, and it is in a form that can be quickly absorbed by any organic matter (like YOU!). All in all, I do not recommend this acid process because of the high risk involved.

 

[Mauser69]

That's not a Keith bullet. It's a bevel base generic SWC.

It matters not if it is a real Keith bullet or a copy of a cow hoof - I was simply trying to identify it by name for anyone that might want to look it up.

MBC labels the Bullet specifically "For Elmer Keith fans", and calls it a "Keith-style" bullet. But the real name is "Elmer K" - so that is what I should have used. I apologize.

 

[Salmoneye]

In all of this, I must have missed where the diameter of the bullets is mentioned...

 

[Walkalong]

Three pages is enough debate on whether one can load lead without leading your bore.