Why 124 grain?

[improperlyaged]

Why did Nato go with 124 grain? In FMJ it is going to do the exact same thing as a 115 and you can get that moving much faster. So why did they go with 124?

 

[1911Tuner]

124 grains was the 9mm Parabellum's original bullet weight. I imagine that the thinking heads were more interested in strong action cycle and penetration than any concern with energy dump.

 

[JTQ]

Tuner1911 is correct. Besides, we went through the "energy dump" thing in the 1980's (probably started in the 1970's) and it was found to not be quite what it was cracked up to be. You need to get enough penetration to hit something that counts.

 

[LockedBreech]

9mm in FMJ is a subpar performer anyway. Even a fast 115 without a hollowpoint would probably not dump much energy.

 

[oldironsights]

Aren't hollow pointed bullets disallowed on the battlefields according to treaty?
FMJ's only?

 

[1911Tuner]

Aren't hollow pointed bullets disallowed on the battlefields according to treaty?
FMJ's only?

The Hague Convention disallowed anything that caused undue pain and suffering...but flame throwers and napalm were okay...and called for full jacketed bullets.

But the US didn't sign the accord, and is thus not bound by it...though we generally do.

 

[mgmorden]

As stated - 124 gr was the original bullet weight. A better question would be why did the commercial market go to 115gr? My guess is it comes down to simple economics. There's about 7% less raw materials used so for commercial ammo it makes some sense to use the lighter bullet.

I tend to be biased against 115's anyways though. I actually shoot 147's 99% of the time .

 

[Onmilo]

Federal expanding full metal jacket is a superb performer with a tendancy towards lackluster accuracy.
Hornady made a 124 grain truncated flatnose FMJ that gave good performance and accuracy but never sold all that well.
The Air Force tested this bullet with positive results but the Military never adopted it.
I think it has been discontinued now, haven't seen these available in years.

 

[1911Tuner]

A better question would be why did the commercial market go to 115gr?

If memory serves me, it was about the time that velocity and energy came to be all the rage in "stopping power" along with catch phrases like "Energy dump" and "Tissue disruption."

And, of course, the over penetration bugaboo raised its head.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

My experience...

115s can often be very problematic in blow-back SMGs.

Not cool.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why did Nato go with 124 grain? In FMJ it is going to do the exact same thing as a 115 and you can get that moving much faster. So why did they go with 124?

Maybe because the military aren't swayed by velocity numbers but are by performance. For some reason much of the shooting public in America have been taken in by the marketing departments who make it seem bullet speed is everything, it's not.

I'm a big fan of using the bullet weight that was used when developing the round. I like 124/125gr bullets in the 9mm, 158gr bullets in the 38/357 and 230gr bullets in the 45 ACP. (even though Mr. Browning originally used a 200gr bullet in early development)

 

[Jackal]

The Hague Convention disallowed anything that caused undue pain and suffering...but flame throwers and napalm were okay...and called for full jacketed bullets.

Jacketed bullets: Because lead poisoning isnt cool.

 

[BobWright]

When all is said and done, weight is the major factor in momentum, which adds to penetration. If an expanded bullet fails to reach vital guts, its of little value.

Weight is better, and more weight is more better.

Bob Wright

 

[ritepath]

Good question...I just spent 150 bucks on a 124gr groveless 2 cavity mold.

But for me it was because I wanted a few more grains above 115's to get better cycling out of light loads, without going to the 147's.

 

[Mainsail]

When all is said and done, weight is the major factor in momentum, which adds to penetration. If an expanded bullet fails to reach vital guts, its of little value.

Weight is better, and more weight is more better.

Bob Wright

+1

The FBI Miami shootout demonstrated this. The FBI believed that whole energy dump silliness. If I carry a 9mm, and I rarely do anymore, it's loaded with 147gr HSTs.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BobWright: When all is said and done, weight is the major factor in momentum, which adds to penetration.

Momentum is the product of velocity and mass. Both are of equal importance.

While increased momentum will contribute to increased penetration, penetration really depends upon kinetic energy, which increases with the square of the velocity and in direct proportion to an increase in mass. Energy is work, or force times distance.

But bullet shape and bullet construction will have an important influence, too.

What momentum tells us is how hard the gun recoils (that applies to the slide, also, and can be important to functioning) and how fast a target with a bullet inside will move after impact--and that isn't very fast at all.

If an expanded bullet fails to reach vital guts, its of little value.True, and also true for an unexpanded bullet.

 

[beeb173]

doesn't a 115 grain FMJ penatrate like 30+ inches?

 

[wally]

penetration really depends upon kinetic energy

Not quite. Penetration is proportional to bullet velocity times sectional density. 147gr 9mm, 180 .40, & 230gr .45 all have approximately the same sectional density, at the same velocity in the same target media you'd get about the same penetration until things like bullet deformation (hollow points) and yaw really complicate the issue.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Go green....

A point made already but worth explaining too is that armed forces(NATO) shoot a lot.
The 124gr 9mmNATO is designed to be FMJ(ball).
Ranges & land(mostly overseas) are not real keen on lead & other toxic substances left in the soil/property.
The US military & DoD are constantly cleaning up ranges/sites to comply with EPA/natural resources regulations-SOPs.
The US Army R&Ded a "green" 5.56mm rifle round because of this reason.
The 9mm 124gr FMJ isn't a hazard or a massive problem but when you consider that 1000s of rounds may be fired over a period of years it adds up.

 

[jamal28]

Actually some units in the army are using hollowpoints both conventional and special ops my friend is in the 101st and he was given permission to carry gold dots in his beretta while on deployment to afghanistan.

 

[RustyShackelford]

True; SW Asia, DA employees & DoD police....

I've heard the same from a few sources too.
It should be noted that "spec ops"(tier one SOFs) operate "down range" under different mission conditions than regular armed forces. They also by federal law have a separate budget & legal(UCMJ/SOFA) RoEs(rules of engagement).

I was in touch with a DA(Dept of the Army) 083 police officer who works in Charlottesville VA(home of the US Army JAG center & school/Judge Advocate General). He explained to me they use M9s(Beretta 92FS 9mm) sidearms with regular 124gr 9mmNATO FMJs. He said it was more of a budget/procurement issue & feeding/cycle reason than bullet design/ballistics.
FWIW; in 2012, I spoke briefly with a few New York NG military police in New York City on a security detail by Grand Central Terminal who had Glock 17s.
They didn't say or explain what types of rounds they used.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Seems like 124gr ball kills people just fine.

 

[improperlyaged]

doesn't a 115 grain FMJ penatrate like 30+ inches?

This is what I was talking about, even a .380 in FMJ will penetrate like the dickens, so I don't understand why the 9 more grains will somehow make a difference when shooting ball ammo doesn't make since to me.

 

[ku4hx]

This is what I was talking about, even a .380 in FMJ will penetrate like the dickens, so I don't understand why the 9 more grains will somehow make a difference when shooting ball ammo doesn't make since to me.

And when the naked gelatin monsters attack, the 115 grain bullet may well be the bullet of choice.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think it is largely economics.

The original 9mm P bullet was 8 grams, 123.4 grains, rounded off to 124 for Imperial measure, tweaked to 125 for customers who liked things in even quarters.

If you are dealing with a lot of ammunition, like an army or Walmart, even small savings mount up. I suspect the accountants and ballisticians got together and concluded that 7.5 grams, 115.7 grains, round down to 115, was the lightest bullet that would allow the proven nose shape and adequate bearing surface. 7% savings in lead and copper over millions of rounds is worth having.

Hornady made a 124 grain truncated flatnose FMJ that gave good performance and accuracy but never sold all that well.
The Air Force tested this bullet with positive results but the Military never adopted it.

It faded out of military trials because of the many different 9mms here and all over NATO that were built for roundnose. There was an intermediate type that looked like an ogival roundnose with the point flattened off. But it was simpler just to stay with the roundnose.

Early 9mm, when the Luger was the only thing to worry about, had a truncated cone bullet nose. Roundnose fed better from the P08 Lang ("Artillery Model") Trommelmagazin and SMGs, so roundnose it became.