Why 358 Win so unpopular?

[GAMEOVER44]

Just curious as to why the 358 cartridge isn't more popular. I been looking for another 358 as I LOVE the round for knock down power at a decent range for hunting as well as it being able to take down anything in North America. Why isn't this round more popular. I have a hell of time finding ammo at times. Thanks for any input.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Just curious as to why the 358 cartridge isn't more popular. I been looking for another 358 as I LOVE the round for knock down power at a decent range for hunting as well as it being able to take down anything in North America. Why isn't this round more popular. I have a hell of time finding ammo at times. Thanks for any input.

probably because it doesn't do anything that cartridges which came before it can do. 35 Whelen came out years before the .358 Winchester, and even it isn't that pervasive.

Many people probably think the .30-06 and .308 are good enough for any game in North America, and those who want more are usually going for something like the .300 Win Mag or .338 Win Mag

 

[H&Hhunter]

I love the .358 Win. But in reality it doesn't do anything from a practical stand point that the .308 win doesn't do just about as good and at longer range better.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

Funny you mention that H&H because my GSR was originally a 308 it was converted to a 358 with a Shillen MG barrel. Recoils not bad and it seems to pack a heavier punch than a 308 when shooting both side by side.

Actually.. you can reload with 308 casings you just have to neck them up from my understanding. That being said im still a 308 fan as well. My 358 seems like its going to be a defensive bear gun down the road at this point due to ammo availability. I have a Terra 3x currently on it with QR mounts that lead to fine iron sites with an optional big-dot up front you can pop up.

I consider it a heavier hitter in the 300 fam and good go between between 308 and 300 WSM. Even though both are longer range cartridges. Its kinda like comparing a 9mm to a 45 ACP.


All that being said can you guys name rifles that are being offered in this caliber?

 

[jmr40]

Too many people look at muzzle energy.... No one shoots stuff at the muzzle.

Some people think .05" in diameter and 25 gr of bullet weight is a big deal. It's not... It is bullet length, not weight and diameter that determine penetration. All things being equal a 200 gr bullet from a 308 or 30-06 will out penetrate a 225 gr bullet from a 358.

Rounds like the 358 win, 35 Whelen, 35 rem, 338 fed, 338-06 etc look better than their 30 caliber counterparts such as 308, 30-06 and 30-30 at the muzzle. Because there is less resistance between the bullet and bore it is possible to shoot the same bullet weights in the larger calibers a little faster. But the far better aerodynamics possible with the 30's results in much better performance down range. The 225 gr. .358 Accubonds have a BC of only .430 and that is one of the best of the 358's. A 200 gr 308 Accubond has a BC of .588.

And you don't have to shoot very far to see the advantage. A 308 will shoot a 200 gr bullet slightly faster than a 358 will shoot a 225 gr bullet. Both have more than enough energy and penetration for anything in North America short of big bear. At the muzzle the 358 has 200 ft lbs energy advantage. At 150 yards they are tied and at 300 yards the 308 has a 200 ft lb advantage, shoots flatter and has much less recoil.

A 30-06 shooting 200 gr bullets spanks the 358 by a wide margin and with slightly less recoil. Both 308 and 30-06 can shoot bullets as light as 125 gr very well making them more versatile too.

The 358 is a fun round to own if someone just wants to be different. Lots of rounds in that category. But from a practical standpoint it offers no advantage over more commonly available rounds.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

Well, I MAY sell it down the road but ill NEVER get what was put into this rifle so then again I may not. Your analogy jmr makes sense. There HAS to be some devastating custom loads I could use in this caliber though. I WILL be learning to reload, hands on, very soon. Suggestions on loads?

I was told that the 358s sweet spot is 300 yds and id agree with that.

edit* I dont agree with the 30-06 spanking the 358 with a 200 gr load. I dont see it. I think the 358 would have more of an impact. Show me balistics and make me a believer lol.

 

[1stmarine]

The 358 Winchester can put a 200gr-225gr bullet 200 fps faster than the same grain form a 308 winchester and from a shorter barrel.
So lighter carbines produce a lot more output and provide a great case volume to bore volume ratio.
In the average hunting distances withing 200-300 yards this puts both extra energy and momentum (not the same as energy) with the well known extra
lethality of the massive 9mm rifle wound channels.

The extra bore and momentum of those 200-225gr is pretty desirable for thick skinned animals and more than appropriate for any game in this continent w/o the need of going to long actions nor magnums.

The 358 is an excellent round in thick woods and it is a blast to shoot including lever guns like the amazing Browning BLR very popular overseas.

The 35 whelen is also bad azz and will do 150fps-200fps more from a 24" barrel to provide a full burn but the 358win that can do a full burn on a 21-22" barrel and 2550-2600fps with 225gr solid or bonded bullets.

The 308w and 30-06 can do a lot of things, more than many might think including taking down grizzly but when a bit extra section and raw power is desired there is no question the 358 or 35 whelen will provide that edge w/o the need to enter magnum territory. These both are very popular overseas and true hunters rounds with an amazing record including close encounters.

I think some might not be so popular in the USA because there are so many great choices that some of the best choices do not get the traction sometimes due to marketing, fashions or simply makers choosing the wrong name or rifle to launch a new round. There are countless cases like this like the .284 for example.

In the end the average joe goes to the big retail shop for what is in fashion and on sale w/o having a good understanding of any kind of ballistics nor terminal performance.

If one wants a short carbine like 17 or 18" that can put some serious lead down range the 358 is a great choice, very accurate and very easy to shoot and feed and still civilized, well almost civilized recoil. Also the 358 department offers some great choices from the practical stand point from affordable 180gr/200gr bullets to 250gr-280gr bonded/fmjs that can take down any animal on the planet. (heavy ones are designed more for the magnums).

Lots of calibers could do a lot of things but for sure the 358w is an amazing round that can shoot some heavy rounds at very decent speeds. And we know what the 9mm wound channels from other even more modest rounds can do.

This a good article but the numbers are a bit conservative if we consider handloads and some high performance ammo.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/358Win_mystery.htm

 

[alsaqr]

With the possible exception of the .35 Remington; .35 caliber rifles have never been popular.

A good .308 handload using a 180 grain TSX bullet out ranges and out thumps the .358 Winchester. i own two .358 rifles; a Winchester model 88 and a Remington model 700 left hand. Have killed numerous wild hogs with the Remington and the 200 grain TSX bullet. It does nothing the .308 can't do.

i have rifles in .358 Winchester, .35 Whelen, .35 Whelen Improved and .358 Norma Magnum. That .358 Norma Magnum with it's 28" barrel is a total nother ball game.

 

[Nature Boy]

Back in 1981 traded my best friend a Remington 1100 12ga for his BLR .358 and it has been my only deer hunting rifle for close to 30 years. I've lost count of how many I've slayed with it. With that said, the last time I found ammo for it was last year when Academy had 10 boxes of Hornady 200 gn and I bought all of them. It was 12 years prior to that when I had found any in stock and I look regularly.

I intend to shoot it more now that I'm into reloading and can make my own.

From my perspective, it's a great round, l love my BLR, but as others have said, there's not enough to differentiate it from other .30 and .35 calibers offerings. All the difficulty of finding commercial ammo and now its an oddity. Its too bad, because it's a great short action thumper.

P.s., to call it a "good brush caliber" is not fair to its ability, like its some souped up 30-30. I've heard that for years. If a .358 is a woods gun, so is a .308

 

[Elkins45]

If you cast your own bullets the 358 is the BEST cartridge. It allows you to shoot cast at just about the max the cartridge can do. And you can do it with surplus 308 brass.

30 cal has always been more popular, but count me as a 358 fan. I bought one of the Ruger 77's that were made a few years ago on close out and I liked the cartridge so much I bought a BLR. I know if there were a killer bear loose in my neighborhood I would grab the 358 before any of the 30 caliber rifles I own. 250 grains of lead with a big flat meplat will put the smack down on just about anything.

 

[db_tanker]

358 Winnie has always been one of those calibers I want to add to my collection...but since I got a 35 Rem in a 14" contender (this is actually quite useful since I live in SE Texas) it has moved back on the priority list.

I would like to get it in a 15" Encore (which IS on my priority purchase list) and I think that would make for a wonderful option to take down piggies as well as anything else that might wander into my sights.


so many calibers, so little time.

 

[1stmarine]

Some of the opinions on this thread are a good example why the 358 Winchester is not more popular. Maybe providing some facts will illuminate some folks with a true interest in the round.

The venerable 308w doesn't out-range nor outperform the 358 in many departments and for many practical uses in the hunting field. Neither one of them is a long range hunting round other than small animals. When the 308w catches up with the 358 is already too far and too late for those premium bullets to launch the parachute. The 30 cal 180gr barnes is hardly the best choice and better save them for the magnums. They take too much case capacity as they are a lot longer. They have to be, they do not have any lead. The solids and bonded like speed on the targets for optimal terminal performance and a 150gr and 168gr will perform better when entering the game so they will leave broader wound channels and they go deep too, even in tougher game given respectable distances. For those using the 308w the 150gr and even the 130gr TTSX are perfect for thin skin animals, they shoot flatter and they open up better at longer ranges. The 130gr TTSX is brutal in white tail and hogs and makes a more pleasant shooter for the kids or wife or anyone and very flat with 260/243 like trajectories. We had lots of folks loosing game or with slow painful kills because of the pin hole wounding even at moderate ranges and most times we had heavy solid bullets involved that are often not the best choice for this type of casing. 308w looses substantial speed with 180-200gr bullets so for heavy game better look for lighter solids or then heavy & stout sp / bonded that open up faster and go deep too.

But when the game gets really big and mean you might want to consider the 35 caliber choices. Heavier bullets, go deep and leave massive broad trauma with deep and wide wound channels. Both the 358W and 35 Whelen are well known to many folks who harvest the biggest game.

Below please find some data based on 308W and 358W premium factory ammo, most of it tested. I am not posting any "secret" manual reload recipes with super natural powers and simply post what is available for anyone to buy. You can also visit the manufacturers sites from Double tap, corbon, Buffalo Bore, etc.. for more information.


Speeds.
The 308 can get more speed with lighter bullets and long barrels.
The 358 can get more speed but we are not interested in light for caliber bullets unless we want budget loads and white tail / hogs on the menu.
When more realistic barrels in 20-22" this benefits the 358 with faster
powders.




Some trajectories/paths are flatter but all pretty reasonable.




In the energy department we do not see any intersections of any kind and at the average ranges the benefit of the 358 is substantial. Remember that these are heavier and wider sections bullets too. So if there is a thumper here that is the 35 caliber.



Here is the power factor that is related to momentum. Not energy but momentum. this is fundamental with heavy game as many experienced hunters will tell you. So again, heavy and wide bullets that go deep.
Remember this, it is not only about energy. Momentum is very important whether you are hunting or knocking down heavy steel at long ranges.

You were right about one thing, power at the muzzle means nothing. But I don't see premium 308 w loads intersect at most practical hunting ranges.




I hope this is easy to read for everyone.

Before one creates strong opinions about a cartridge study it a little bit and test it if you can. There is no substitute for testing something, maybe ask a friend and go hunting with it.

 

[Robert]

Because I have my 375H&H...

 

[Savage99]

I got my first .358 Winchester rifle in 1966 and made it my primary game hunting rifle in Vermont. I also got deer with it in PA and CT.

It just felt good woods hunting from my 'camp' in VT with the 358. I felt I could shoot at a running deer and get it with that power.

Of course I have used other cartridges and others that are reasonable will work.

However the 358 is cool.

The bottom two rifles are 358 Winchesters

 

[AKMtnRunner]

Because I have my 375H&H...

Yes. I was looking hard for 35 cal such as in the win flavor, but came upon ruger's guide gun in 375 ruger for less than $1000 in right or left hand action.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

Great post and info 1stmarine. Thx for the charts. I knew the 358 was more of a thumper then the 308. My father whos a nam vet must of knew it too because hes the one who had this GSR originally rechambered from 308 to 358 Win with a 22" Shillen MG barrel.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Middle Child Syndrome

It doesn't do anything that the .35Rem doesn't do if handloaded to it's (.35Rem) potential. Neither does the .358 out perform a plethora of other cartridges. (ie; .308, .30TC, 7.62x54, .30/06, .35Whelen, .338Fed, .350RemMag, ect, ect, ect.

I have a BLR '81 in .358. It's a NICE rifle. Besides the hideous original Pachmayer White Line recoil pad (I replaced it with a Boyds 1/2" solid pad which took nearly 1/2lb off the rear of the rifle shifting the balance noticeably foward); the trigger has a loottt of creep and not readily adjustable.
It's tolerably accurate, yeilding ~1.5" 3-shot groups at 100yds with it's favorite load...
48.0gr of H4895 under the Hornady 200gr PtSpt, at ~2,500fps.

It's a GOOD cast bullet cartridge/rifle combination, but no better/different than my Marlin M336 in .35Rem. The Marlin is just as accurate, just as pretty, but has a VASTLY better trigger that was quite easy to tweak, though it only needed a little from the way it came out of the box sometime back in the late '60's.
With identical bullet (200gr FNGC RCBS mold, casts to 220gr), it gets identical velocities and accuracy with identical powder charge.
From strong rifle's, with handloads, the difference between the two .35's is like the difference between the .22-250 and .220Swift. Not enough to be able to see a real difference.

The advantage the .358 has is that under 250yds, with identical shot placement with identical bullet style, it gives a bit more "smack" on game than it's progenitor, the .308.
Also; it only takes a single pass into a .358 sizer die to turn a .308 case into a .358.
I only have a single box of .358win factory ammo, a box I ran across at a mom 'n pop gun shop and got for $15... Fellow said he'd had it for 20yrs and never even took it off the shelf... It was quite dusty! And, I picked up 3 fired empty's at a public range one day....
Rest of my stash of .358 is reformed from either Winchester or Federal ofb. I bought 10 boxes of Federal .308 GoldMedal Match ofb for $2 a box/20. Some day, I'll perhaps load them up... for what, I don't know...

I also have; .375Ruger, .338/06, TWO .338MarlinExp (my favorites!); THREE .30/06 -2 Garands!; .300RUM; ect, ect, ect...

 

[T.R.]

That's a valid question. The .358 has a lot going for it as a cartridge for the foothills and forests.

That being said, I've hunted across North America with my .308 rifle and never found it lacking. Most animals taken with just one bullet through the chest organs although a moose taken in Saskatchewan req'd a second shot. Every elk has req'd a second shot as well.

I think that the .358 never rec'd the marketing it deserved and majority of writers have ignored this cartridge as well.

TR

 

[mavracer]

Middle Child Syndrome

This pretty much explains it, it's a little bit caught in no man's land, the 308 is a little better all around cartridge for deer,pigs and small bear and most that want to step up for big bears, elk and moose want a bigger step up in performance than the 358 provides.
Love the round used to have a BLR in 358 and have since gone to it's predicessere the 348 in a Browning M71.
The 358 chambering in the GSR really is kinda cool as one of Cooper's original Scouts was a 350 rem mag so I'm sure he'd approve of the chambering.

 

[1stmarine]

Thanks guys. I am just trying to put some facts on the table so people can see the amazing performance and potential of this round. There are a lot of opinions but math doesn't lie and for those who use them they know the 35 calibers are meat factories.

It is no secret some cartridges do not catch on because of the little knowledge about them that is probably triggered by a poor go to market strategy with the wrong name, wrong rifles or just at the wrong time or all of the above. This has happened to many nice cartridges.

Let me present a different perspective to the discussion.

Of course the 308w as well as the 30.06 can do many things others can do and some much better. We could also argue the 7mm.08 and 280 can do a lot of things the 308w & 30/06 can do an some better.

The fact is Americans (north and south) love the 30 caliber and when a "big" caliber is wanted folks jump straight into the 44,45 and 50 caliber departments.

But if one doesn't look closely at the casings and bullet choices in all departments including, ballistics and killing potential one might be missing the 35 and 375 calibers, both capable of cleanly taking the largest African game. The 35 caliber department has a decent assortment of bullets, including some decently priced ones that can be use for practice and hunting making this
round even more attractive. Once you go up in calibers the assortment gets much smaller and the prices go up significantly. So the 35 caliber might be the last caliber going up with a
good balance between assortment, ballistics and cost per bullet considering the budget options it has. Premium bullets are always more expensive but at least the more affordable option is there. This doesn't happen in other calibers going up.

So here a few good reasons to give the 358w a chance:

-Plentiful and economic brass, sometimes free at the range pickup.

-Easy to reload, one easy pass to neck up with the FL die and presto.

-It can use a wide range of bullets including .356/.357 fmj and hollow
points pistol bullets from very affordable value packs for practice
and small game all the way to premium .358 solid and bonded bullets
designed to harvest the largest game in the world.

-It also works with a wide range of popular powders and with the
right twist can use 310gr-320gr bullets for subsonic work.

-The 308 numbers above are hot loads from 24" barrels but in more realistic and practical 20"-22" light hunting
rifle the 358 holds top speeds better than the 308.(faster powders).

-Accuracy has been excellent, as good as the parent and accuracy life of barrels and firearms is extremely long.

-It outperforms many popular larger bore cartridges in power, reach and trajectory and it is a very serious choice
for thick woods and brush w/o much deflection.

- It works great in popular 308w short actions and magazines.

most of the above will also apply with the also awesome 35 whelen but if one likes short actions and has spent 308w brass vs. 30-06 this might be a best choice.
Recoil continues to be substantial with premium bullets but only one can decide if the extra recoil and powder expense of long actions can be justified and will
be more manageable than many magnums anyway. I see the 358 a great alternative for those who like short actions and have plenty of 308 brass to reload
the same way the whelen might be the best choice for someone who likes long actions and have plenty of 30-06 spent brass to reload.

The 35 Rem is very nice and versatile round too but with the heaviest /best bullets it just doesn't come close to the awesome power of the 358w or whelen.

These are all facts not just opinions. Also look at the facts / charts above.



Side note:
If anyone is interested I made a wildcat out of the 35 Remington to be shot from a 16" AR15. With the added free bore and 7.62x39 this preforms like
the 35rem from a very light and popular platform with the advantage that runs like a charm from AR15 magazines. Also great for a CZ action.
I can create a thread on this so let me know.

 

[Nature Boy]

I think it might be safe to say that the .358 win is unpopular with everyone.....except those that have owned one and expierenced their performance in the field.

My only complaint has been ammo availability, but I plan to reload for it soon.

 

[1stmarine]

Yes a bit of that too.
I think in general there is not a good understanding of the ballistics involved. Most people do not even know the amazing bullet options
one has but if one does some studying then a different reality starts to unveil.
These are very popular overseas with hard core hunters.

 

[1stmarine]

I got my first .358 Winchester rifle in 1966 and made it my primary game hunting rifle in Vermont. I also got deer with it in PA and CT.

It just felt good woods hunting from my 'camp' in VT with the 358. I felt I could shoot at a running deer and get it with that power.

Of course I have used other cartridges and others that are reasonable will work.

However the 358 is cool.

The bottom two rifles are 358 Winchesters

Those look awesome and true hunter / meat harvesting machines.

Of course one could go with a modern platform too that is super easy to chamber and swap calibers with....

 

[4sixteen]

Very cool cartridge! The 358 can be loaded with 310gr bullets at around 2100 fps MV. For use on heavy game, it offers a lot more wallop and penetration out to 150 yards compared to the 308 loaded with 180gr bullets.

 

[Sunray]

"...Maybe providing some facts..." Giant pictures aside, facts just interfere with the lack of marketing. Ballistics mean nothing if the manufacturer, Winchester in this case, doesn't aggressively market their new stuff. Usually done because the demand is low. .35 calibre cartridges, in general, have low demand in North America.