MCgunner
Member
If you LIKE high capacity, there's 20 shots. 
Why 6?
- Thread starter nater762
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Gaucho Gringo
Member
Another thing to consider in this thread is the physical size of people 100-150 years ago. People were noticeably smaller in this time period and I would think the designers of guns would take this into consideration. Colt kept on downsizing his .44 revolver from Walker to Dragoon to 1860 Army. At the same time all of his smaller 1848 based revolvers in many different models, barrel lengths and calibers sold more than all the .44 revolvers in the time.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
As has been stated, the first practical revolver was the Paterson Colt of 1837. Colt was really exploring untrodden ground with the Paterson, so we may look back today at some of his engineering decisions with perfect 20/20 hindsight as being poor decisions, but he was pioneering a completely new type of firearm.
Yes, the Patersons were all 5 shots. The first was only 28 caliber, the next was 31 caliber, and finally the belt models were made in 36 caliber. These belt models were sizable guns, some of them had barrels as long as 12 inches, and a 36 caliber ball was a reliable man stopper as long as it was well placed.
The reason Colt waited 10 years before bringing out the Walker was because he was broke. Colt's Patent Arms Manufacturing Company went bankrupt. Colt spent the next ten years trying to come up with enough capital to get back in the firearms manufacturing business. When Captain Walker approached him with a new idea for a revolver, it was the turning point in Colt's career. Between them, they designed the revolver to end all revolvers, the monster Walker. It had six 44 caliber chambers, each of which could hold 60 grains of powder. The barrel was nine inches long and the gun weighed about 4 1/2 pounds. It was so big that it was usually carried in a saddle holster, not a belt holster.
In fact, the Walker was too big, that's why only 1100 of them were ever produced. Colt and Walker had simply swung the pendulum too far, going from the relatively small 5 shot Paterson design to the huge 6 shot 44 caliber Walker. Once the 1100 Walkers were produced, Colt immediately began working on its successor, the Dragoon series. Still a very large revolver, but the barrel was shortened to 7 1/2", chamber capacity was reduced by about 10 grains, and the dragoon weighed about 1/2 pound less than the Walker.
But Colt kept shrinking the percussion revolver until he came up with the 1851 Navy. Weighing 2 pounds 10 ounces, the Navy was perfection. Six 36 caliber chambers with a capacity of 25 grains, the Navy was the best revolver he had come up with yet. It pointed beautifully and the grip shape was so well designed that the 1873 Single Action Army used the same grip, and even modern Rugers use the same basic grip shape.
The 44 caliber 1860 Army was basically an improved 1851 Navy. The frame of the Army was actually no bigger than the 36 caliber Navy frame. Colt accomplished this by rebating the cylinder. The rear of the cylinder was the same diameter as the Navy cylinder, but the front was enlarged, to make room for six 44 caliber chambers. Each chamber would hold about 30 grains of powder. The frame was notched to accommodate the enlarged front of the cylinder. The grip frame was about 1/4" longer, and the barrel design had been streamlined, but the 44 caliber Army was basically no bigger than the 36 caliber Navy.
As far as 6 shot cylinders being easier to machine than an odd number like 5, that is incorrect. Again, looking back with 20/20 hindsight we may tend to overlook how truly clever the founders of the Industrial Revolution were. Indexing a cylinder 5 times, or even 7 times was not difficult at all. Don't forget, the very first Smith and Wesson revolver was the tiny 7 shot 22 rimfire No 1 revolver. It was first produced in 1857 and it was a very successful model.
In fact, many of the S&W pocket revolvers made after the appearance of the Top Break designs were 5 shots. All the 38 caliber Top Breaks were 5 shots, and I am pretty sure the 32 caliber Top Breaks were all 5 shots too. Here are a couple of photos, the first one is my 32 caliber S&W Safety Hammerless, the second is my 38 caliber Safety Hammerless. Both are 5 shot revolvers. For a compact pocket revolver, 5 shots simply works best.
In fact, even today, 5 38 caliber cartridges are all that can be fit into the cylinder of a small pocket revolver like this S&W Model 36.
Colt gets six into the Detective Special, but its cylinder and frame are a little bit bigger.
Smith and Wesson put six chambered cylinders on all of their large frame Top Break revolvers, such as my New Model Number Three. If one was to try to make a cylinder big enough for more than six 44 or 45 caliber chambers, the gun would wind up being too big and unwieldy.
Basically, it boils down to how many chambers of a given size can fit into a cylinder of a given size. As has already been stated, with S&W revolvers, the K frame was designed as six shot medium frame 38 caliber revolver. The J frame was actually designed to be big enough for six 32 caliber chambers. If you try to make a 38 caliber J frame, you have to reduce the round count to 5. Go up to 44 or 45 caliber and you have to move up to the N frame, which until recently was the biggest frame S&W made, like this 44 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model.
Yes, today superior metalurgy makes it possible to stuff 7 or even 8 chambers into a 357 Magnum revolver of reasonable size. But don't forget, when the 357 Magnum was developed in 1935, the steel available at that time was not as strong as some of the modern steels. The only way to contain six high pressure 357 Magnum cartridges back then was to build the gun on the large N frame, with a lot of steel between the chambers.
The next photo shows a S&W Model 27 at top and a Model 19 at the bottom. The Model 27 is built on the N frame. The Model 19 is built on the K frame. Clearly, the N frame gun is bigger. Both guns are chambered for 357 Magnum, but the Model 27 is built on the same size frame as the first 357 Magnum was in 1935.
This next photo tells the whole story. Clearly the Model 27 cylinder is much larger in diameter and there is more steel surrounding the chambers. The Model 19 was the first 357 Magnum revolver built on the medium sized K frame in the 1960s. By that time, metalurgy had advanced enough that it was possible to chamber the powerful 357 Mag in a cylinder with less steel around each chamber.
As has been stated, the first practical revolver was the Paterson Colt of 1837. Colt was really exploring untrodden ground with the Paterson, so we may look back today at some of his engineering decisions with perfect 20/20 hindsight as being poor decisions, but he was pioneering a completely new type of firearm.
Yes, the Patersons were all 5 shots. The first was only 28 caliber, the next was 31 caliber, and finally the belt models were made in 36 caliber. These belt models were sizable guns, some of them had barrels as long as 12 inches, and a 36 caliber ball was a reliable man stopper as long as it was well placed.
The reason Colt waited 10 years before bringing out the Walker was because he was broke. Colt's Patent Arms Manufacturing Company went bankrupt. Colt spent the next ten years trying to come up with enough capital to get back in the firearms manufacturing business. When Captain Walker approached him with a new idea for a revolver, it was the turning point in Colt's career. Between them, they designed the revolver to end all revolvers, the monster Walker. It had six 44 caliber chambers, each of which could hold 60 grains of powder. The barrel was nine inches long and the gun weighed about 4 1/2 pounds. It was so big that it was usually carried in a saddle holster, not a belt holster.
In fact, the Walker was too big, that's why only 1100 of them were ever produced. Colt and Walker had simply swung the pendulum too far, going from the relatively small 5 shot Paterson design to the huge 6 shot 44 caliber Walker. Once the 1100 Walkers were produced, Colt immediately began working on its successor, the Dragoon series. Still a very large revolver, but the barrel was shortened to 7 1/2", chamber capacity was reduced by about 10 grains, and the dragoon weighed about 1/2 pound less than the Walker.
But Colt kept shrinking the percussion revolver until he came up with the 1851 Navy. Weighing 2 pounds 10 ounces, the Navy was perfection. Six 36 caliber chambers with a capacity of 25 grains, the Navy was the best revolver he had come up with yet. It pointed beautifully and the grip shape was so well designed that the 1873 Single Action Army used the same grip, and even modern Rugers use the same basic grip shape.
The 44 caliber 1860 Army was basically an improved 1851 Navy. The frame of the Army was actually no bigger than the 36 caliber Navy frame. Colt accomplished this by rebating the cylinder. The rear of the cylinder was the same diameter as the Navy cylinder, but the front was enlarged, to make room for six 44 caliber chambers. Each chamber would hold about 30 grains of powder. The frame was notched to accommodate the enlarged front of the cylinder. The grip frame was about 1/4" longer, and the barrel design had been streamlined, but the 44 caliber Army was basically no bigger than the 36 caliber Navy.
As far as 6 shot cylinders being easier to machine than an odd number like 5, that is incorrect. Again, looking back with 20/20 hindsight we may tend to overlook how truly clever the founders of the Industrial Revolution were. Indexing a cylinder 5 times, or even 7 times was not difficult at all. Don't forget, the very first Smith and Wesson revolver was the tiny 7 shot 22 rimfire No 1 revolver. It was first produced in 1857 and it was a very successful model.
In fact, many of the S&W pocket revolvers made after the appearance of the Top Break designs were 5 shots. All the 38 caliber Top Breaks were 5 shots, and I am pretty sure the 32 caliber Top Breaks were all 5 shots too. Here are a couple of photos, the first one is my 32 caliber S&W Safety Hammerless, the second is my 38 caliber Safety Hammerless. Both are 5 shot revolvers. For a compact pocket revolver, 5 shots simply works best.
In fact, even today, 5 38 caliber cartridges are all that can be fit into the cylinder of a small pocket revolver like this S&W Model 36.
Colt gets six into the Detective Special, but its cylinder and frame are a little bit bigger.
Smith and Wesson put six chambered cylinders on all of their large frame Top Break revolvers, such as my New Model Number Three. If one was to try to make a cylinder big enough for more than six 44 or 45 caliber chambers, the gun would wind up being too big and unwieldy.
Basically, it boils down to how many chambers of a given size can fit into a cylinder of a given size. As has already been stated, with S&W revolvers, the K frame was designed as six shot medium frame 38 caliber revolver. The J frame was actually designed to be big enough for six 32 caliber chambers. If you try to make a 38 caliber J frame, you have to reduce the round count to 5. Go up to 44 or 45 caliber and you have to move up to the N frame, which until recently was the biggest frame S&W made, like this 44 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model.
Yes, today superior metalurgy makes it possible to stuff 7 or even 8 chambers into a 357 Magnum revolver of reasonable size. But don't forget, when the 357 Magnum was developed in 1935, the steel available at that time was not as strong as some of the modern steels. The only way to contain six high pressure 357 Magnum cartridges back then was to build the gun on the large N frame, with a lot of steel between the chambers.
The next photo shows a S&W Model 27 at top and a Model 19 at the bottom. The Model 27 is built on the N frame. The Model 19 is built on the K frame. Clearly, the N frame gun is bigger. Both guns are chambered for 357 Magnum, but the Model 27 is built on the same size frame as the first 357 Magnum was in 1935.
This next photo tells the whole story. Clearly the Model 27 cylinder is much larger in diameter and there is more steel surrounding the chambers. The Model 19 was the first 357 Magnum revolver built on the medium sized K frame in the 1960s. By that time, metalurgy had advanced enough that it was possible to chamber the powerful 357 Mag in a cylinder with less steel around each chamber.
Loosedhorse
member
Geometry. Cylinders (as in cartridges and and base pins) pack most efficiently as hexagons.
See?
With a smaller base pin, five will be efficient With a larger pin, you can start to squeeze more charge holes around it; but most eight-shot revolvers are "inefficient" and have more cylinder weight between the charge holes and the base pin than is ideally efficient.
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Nice summary of the development of the revolver. I'd forgotten how perfect the 1861 Navy was
madcratebuilder
Member
As were 5 round .31 and 9 round .44 caliber cap and ballers.
The case diameter, cylinder diameter and strength requirements determine how many chambers get drilled.
Constrictor
Member
because 5 just wasnt enough
As others have pointed out-efficiency. The most efficient way to arrange equal size circles in a 2 dimensional circular space for the least "voids" between circles is 7 touching circles....but one is in the center. For a revolver the circles become holes, material needs to be left between the holes etc but it is still the most efficient arrangement to get the most in the least material. The 7th hole/circle becomes the axis to spin the rest around-Voila! you have a six shot cylinder.
Kudos to Driftwood Johnson. Excellent post!Howdy
As has been stated, the first practical revolver was the Paterson Colt of 1837. Colt was really exploring untrodden ground with the Paterson, so we may look back today at some of his engineering decisions with perfect 20/20 hindsight as being poor decisions, but he was pioneering a completely new type of firearm.
Yes, the Patersons were all 5 shots. The first was only 28 caliber, the next was 31 caliber, and finally the belt models were made in 36 caliber. These belt models were sizable guns, some of them had barrels as long as 12 inches, and a 36 caliber ball was a reliable man stopper as long as it was well placed.
The reason Colt waited 10 years before bringing out the Walker was because he was broke. Colt's Patent Arms Manufacturing Company went bankrupt. Colt spent the next ten years trying to come up with enough capital to get back in the firearms manufacturing business. When Captain Walker approached him with a new idea for a revolver, it was the turning point in Colt's career. Between them, they designed the revolver to end all revolvers, the monster Walker. It had six 44 caliber chambers, each of which could hold 60 grains of powder. The barrel was nine inches long and the gun weighed about 4 1/2 pounds. It was so big that it was usually carried in a saddle holster, not a belt holster.
In fact, the Walker was too big, that's why only 1100 of them were ever produced. Colt and Walker had simply swung the pendulum too far, going from the relatively small 5 shot Paterson design to the huge 6 shot 44 caliber Walker. Once the 1100 Walkers were produced, Colt immediately began working on its successor, the Dragoon series. Still a very large revolver, but the barrel was shortened to 7 1/2", chamber capacity was reduced by about 10 grains, and the dragoon weighed about 1/2 pound less than the Walker.
But Colt kept shrinking the percussion revolver until he came up with the 1851 Navy. Weighing 2 pounds 10 ounces, the Navy was perfection. Six 36 caliber chambers with a capacity of 25 grains, the Navy was the best revolver he had come up with yet. It pointed beautifully and the grip shape was so well designed that the 1873 Single Action Army used the same grip, and even modern Rugers use the same basic grip shape.
The 44 caliber 1860 Army was basically an improved 1851 Navy. The frame of the Army was actually no bigger than the 36 caliber Navy frame. Colt accomplished this by rebating the cylinder. The rear of the cylinder was the same diameter as the Navy cylinder, but the front was enlarged, to make room for six 44 caliber chambers. Each chamber would hold about 30 grains of powder. The frame was notched to accommodate the enlarged front of the cylinder. The grip frame was about 1/4" longer, and the barrel design had been streamlined, but the 44 caliber Army was basically no bigger than the 36 caliber Navy.
As far as 6 shot cylinders being easier to machine than an odd number like 5, that is incorrect. Again, looking back with 20/20 hindsight we may tend to overlook how truly clever the founders of the Industrial Revolution were. Indexing a cylinder 5 times, or even 7 times was not difficult at all. Don't forget, the very first Smith and Wesson revolver was the tiny 7 shot 22 rimfire No 1 revolver. It was first produced in 1857 and it was a very successful model.
In fact, many of the S&W pocket revolvers made after the appearance of the Top Break designs were 5 shots. All the 38 caliber Top Breaks were 5 shots, and I am pretty sure the 32 caliber Top Breaks were all 5 shots too. Here are a couple of photos, the first one is my 32 caliber S&W Safety Hammerless, the second is my 38 caliber Safety Hammerless. Both are 5 shot revolvers. For a compact pocket revolver, 5 shots simply works best.
In fact, even today, 5 38 caliber cartridges are all that can be fit into the cylinder of a small pocket revolver like this S&W Model 36.
Colt gets six into the Detective Special, but its cylinder and frame are a little bit bigger.
Smith and Wesson put six chambered cylinders on all of their large frame Top Break revolvers, such as my New Model Number Three. If one was to try to make a cylinder big enough for more than six 44 or 45 caliber chambers, the gun would wind up being too big and unwieldy.
Basically, it boils down to how many chambers of a given size can fit into a cylinder of a given size. As has already been stated, with S&W revolvers, the K frame was designed as six shot medium frame 38 caliber revolver. The J frame was actually designed to be big enough for six 32 caliber chambers. If you try to make a 38 caliber J frame, you have to reduce the round count to 5. Go up to 44 or 45 caliber and you have to move up to the N frame, which until recently was the biggest frame S&W made, like this 44 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model.
Yes, today superior metalurgy makes it possible to stuff 7 or even 8 chambers into a 357 Magnum revolver of reasonable size. But don't forget, when the 357 Magnum was developed in 1935, the steel available at that time was not as strong as some of the modern steels. The only way to contain six high pressure 357 Magnum cartridges back then was to build the gun on the large N frame, with a lot of steel between the chambers.
The next photo shows a S&W Model 27 at top and a Model 19 at the bottom. The Model 27 is built on the N frame. The Model 19 is built on the K frame. Clearly, the N frame gun is bigger. Both guns are chambered for 357 Magnum, but the Model 27 is built on the same size frame as the first 357 Magnum was in 1935.
This next photo tells the whole story. Clearly the Model 27 cylinder is much larger in diameter and there is more steel surrounding the chambers. The Model 19 was the first 357 Magnum revolver built on the medium sized K frame in the 1960s. By that time, metalurgy had advanced enough that it was possible to chamber the powerful 357 Mag in a cylinder with less steel around each chamber.
woad_yurt
Member
I think that the preference for six of anything may have its roots far further back, way before revolvers were made. Dozens and half-dozens have been commonly used as group sizes for a long, long time in western Europe, back to Celtic times, and are still in use today. Hot dogs, screw tips for my drill, beer, donuts, the months in a year, all come in multiples of six.
Couldn't it be that "six" as a standard was just embedded in the culture? That it just felt "natural?"
I do concede, though, that a circle is very easily divided into 6 parts and I thank this forum for letting me spout philosophically.
PS Could it be as simple as the fact that "six shooter" rolls off the tongue so much more naturally than "five shooter" or "seven shooter?" I mean, doesn't "six shooter" just sound so good?
Couldn't it be that "six" as a standard was just embedded in the culture? That it just felt "natural?"
I do concede, though, that a circle is very easily divided into 6 parts and I thank this forum for letting me spout philosophically.
PS Could it be as simple as the fact that "six shooter" rolls off the tongue so much more naturally than "five shooter" or "seven shooter?" I mean, doesn't "six shooter" just sound so good?
jhvaughan2
Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
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"seven shooter" has too many syllables
"Five shooter" does not have that nice alliteration.
Therefor "Six shooter" it is.
[edit] oops Yurt beat me to it.
"Five shooter" does not have that nice alliteration.
Therefor "Six shooter" it is.
[edit] oops Yurt beat me to it.
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