Drgong
Member
Both have advantages, both have weaknesses.
Shoot the one that you can hit better with.
Shoot the one that you can hit better with.
Why a revolver.
- Thread starter Carl Levitian
- Start date
- Status
First and formost, you cannot limp wrist a revolver. That happens to the best of us shooting autos, if you shoot long enough, it will occur. Revolvers are more reliable, at least on the lower side of number of rounds fired. Sooner or later, they will go out of time or develope end shake or something, but it's a long time down the road. Most people will never shoot one long enough to have that happen. Autos, on the other hand, can have shooter issues (limp wristing), ammo issues, magazine issues, extractor or ejector issues. They do tend to go longer before major parts issues, but again, most people will never get there anyway. Just like you gun will survive torture tests like mud, dropping from helicopters and being run over by tanks. I've been shooting over 50 years and have never even dropped a gun, let long run over it or "drowned" it. So, for most reasons, I vote for the revolver. A Ruger GP100 at that....
Hawk
Member
Not necessarily. There are plenty of semiautos that can't be limp-wristed in the classic sense and several that can. If it weighs heavily on one's mind, choose one that can't be limpwristed even held as loosely as possible without dropping it.
A member here went to some trouble to get some empirical evidence.
Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsktLC-hzx4
My STI has also defied my best efforst to induce a grip related malf. If it hadn't, it would be gone.
Stainz
Member
I don't understand. This is a revolver forum. If you must eschew the virtues, perceptual or otherwise, of the revolver here, where would such praise be acceptable? Some of us - okay, at least me - are not LEOs. Our protection needs are simpler. If 5-8 rounds won't halt a threat within your home - or around your person - you likely should have moved a long time ago, travel in nicer areas, or carried something crew-served.
As to reloads, I know I can 'lay down fire' with greater numbers of .45 ACP ball ammo from my 625 than any of my friends with their 1911s or variants. Even my G21, now gone for a decade, with it's +2 extenders and 15rd mags, was limited - I couldn't afford any more than it's original two hi-cap mags. I've shot over 420 rounds from that 625 before cleaning it - and had to clean it then due to my visual disgust, not it's dysfunction. Without a doubt, my .223 ammo box with 105 loaded moonclips of ball ammo and my 625 is a good choice for Zombie protection. Most bottom-feeder owners I know have four or five mags at most.
Others have praised moonclips and speedloaders. Their use here is a mixed bag. The moonclipped .45 ACP ball ammo, particularly in a revolver with an eased ejector star, seem to leap into the chambers, making for fast reloads. Load that bullet into .45 Auto Rim cases - and them into an HKS #25 speedloader - and you have to visually align the short rounds over their respective chambers before 'Bombs away!'. Get to the .38 or .44 Special in length, and speedloaders are much faster. Of course, moonclips aren't fast in some instances - my use of such in my 627s being a case in point, as aligning those spindly spider legs for insertion quickly is just not likely. That may be me.
So... I am happy with revolvers. I won't go to an evil-bottom-feeder/rude-case-toser forum heaping praise on revolvers, however.
Stainz
As to reloads, I know I can 'lay down fire' with greater numbers of .45 ACP ball ammo from my 625 than any of my friends with their 1911s or variants. Even my G21, now gone for a decade, with it's +2 extenders and 15rd mags, was limited - I couldn't afford any more than it's original two hi-cap mags. I've shot over 420 rounds from that 625 before cleaning it - and had to clean it then due to my visual disgust, not it's dysfunction. Without a doubt, my .223 ammo box with 105 loaded moonclips of ball ammo and my 625 is a good choice for Zombie protection. Most bottom-feeder owners I know have four or five mags at most.
Others have praised moonclips and speedloaders. Their use here is a mixed bag. The moonclipped .45 ACP ball ammo, particularly in a revolver with an eased ejector star, seem to leap into the chambers, making for fast reloads. Load that bullet into .45 Auto Rim cases - and them into an HKS #25 speedloader - and you have to visually align the short rounds over their respective chambers before 'Bombs away!'. Get to the .38 or .44 Special in length, and speedloaders are much faster. Of course, moonclips aren't fast in some instances - my use of such in my 627s being a case in point, as aligning those spindly spider legs for insertion quickly is just not likely. That may be me.
So... I am happy with revolvers. I won't go to an evil-bottom-feeder/rude-case-toser forum heaping praise on revolvers, however.
Stainz
Hawk
Member
I enjoy both but most of my shooting time is with revolvers and most online time in the revolver forum - both by choice.
There's a subtle difference between raining on a love parade and pointing out perceived inaccuracies, even admitting that such inaccuracies may be such only in my opinion.
Noobs hang around here and if a charge is made against semiautos that doesn't hold water or a hosanna is sung about a wheelgun that omits some facts, then counterpoint should be offered.
Revolvers are more reliable if kept clean with screwed in extractor rods. They're not 100% more reliable 100% of the time. Their operation is simpler but their parts count might well be higher. Not all revolvers are alike and not all semis are alike. Noting such things shouldn't be overly disruptive to a revolver love fest thread. A noob should not be led to believe that something simply can't screw up - convincing anyone of such would be irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
Almost everything involves a trade off of some sort. There are a few incontrovertible advantages that revolvers have. One is that the brass is easier to keep. Another was pointed out a few posts back: they work better with black powder.
There's a subtle difference between raining on a love parade and pointing out perceived inaccuracies, even admitting that such inaccuracies may be such only in my opinion.
Noobs hang around here and if a charge is made against semiautos that doesn't hold water or a hosanna is sung about a wheelgun that omits some facts, then counterpoint should be offered.
Revolvers are more reliable if kept clean with screwed in extractor rods. They're not 100% more reliable 100% of the time. Their operation is simpler but their parts count might well be higher. Not all revolvers are alike and not all semis are alike. Noting such things shouldn't be overly disruptive to a revolver love fest thread. A noob should not be led to believe that something simply can't screw up - convincing anyone of such would be irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
Almost everything involves a trade off of some sort. There are a few incontrovertible advantages that revolvers have. One is that the brass is easier to keep. Another was pointed out a few posts back: they work better with black powder.
crebralfix
member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,356
I have also noticed that many folks have only a few magazines for their gun.
I went to a "Point Shooting Progressions" with Roger Phillips recently. I took 21 magazines. Another guy had 35. Then there was the poor guy with two magazines for his Glock 30 and three for his HK.
This was a 1,500-2,000 round two day course.
I'm sure his thumbs are still bruised.
BINGO!
I've seen that Youtube video before. It destroys the myth that "All semi-autos are highly prone to limpwristing", so often repeated by advocates of the widowmaker (i.e. revolver).
Please note that ALL of the semi-autos fired every single shot, except for the Glock and the Beretta 92. The 92 failed only once, and that was on the last round, which the guy in the video correctly pointed out "could've been a magazine problem."
ONLY the Glock was bad about limpwristing, and I don't own any Glocks, so I'm not concerned. Many tens of thousands of LEO's worldwide carry Glocks, and I have yet to see even ONE documented case of an LEO getting shot because his Glock limpwristed. For that matter, I've never seen a documented case of a civilian getting shot because their Glock limpwristed on them.
The 1911 style weapons and the Springfield XD fired each and every time, even though the guy was holding them as loosely as possible.
I tried the same test at my range with two Kimber 1911's and two Springfield XD's, and all four of them fired multiple magazines without ANY malfunctions whatsoever, even though I was holding them just as loose as the guy in the Youtube video.
FACT: Two of the FBI agents shot in the FBI Miami shootout of 1986, were shot while trying to reload their widowmakers.
Special Agent Gordon McNeil was shot in the neck (and paralyzed) while trying to reload his widowmaker.
Special Agent John Hanlon was shot in the groin while attempting to reload his widowmaker.
Of the four agents who were carrying widowmakers in the firefight, only one of them was able to reload, even though the event lasted over four minutes.
The Miami shootout resulted in the FBI retiring their widowmakers shortly thereafter, and adopting semi-autos as their primary issue sidearms. In the ensuing decade, tens of thousands of LE agencies around the country followed the FBI's lead, and adopted semi-autos.
Special Agent Gordon McNeil was shot in the neck (and paralyzed) while trying to reload his widowmaker.
Special Agent John Hanlon was shot in the groin while attempting to reload his widowmaker.
Of the four agents who were carrying widowmakers in the firefight, only one of them was able to reload, even though the event lasted over four minutes.
The Miami shootout resulted in the FBI retiring their widowmakers shortly thereafter, and adopting semi-autos as their primary issue sidearms. In the ensuing decade, tens of thousands of LE agencies around the country followed the FBI's lead, and adopted semi-autos.
pinkymingeo
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2007
- Messages
- 591
If I remember properly, that fight was ended by a wounded agent and his J-frame ankle gun. The suspects were wounded multiple times, but one kept on going. Regardless of what you shoot, handguns stink for personal defense, and are even worse for combat. They beat throwing (small) rocks, but that's about it. Use what you like, but hope you never have to use it at all.
Drgong
Member
First of all, I am not a LEO. I am a Citizen who needs protection.
I own both Semi-autos (BHP) and revolvers. the BHP is a fun gun, and others who shoot it just grin, and I will have a lot of fun with it.
However even with a old russian revolver that is 75 years old I can out shoot myself shooting the BHP. Others may very well shoot better with the BHP, but I personally shoot better with a revolver.
Knowing me, I may very well OC the BHP and have a widowmaker in the pocket.
I own both Semi-autos (BHP) and revolvers. the BHP is a fun gun, and others who shoot it just grin, and I will have a lot of fun with it.
However even with a old russian revolver that is 75 years old I can out shoot myself shooting the BHP. Others may very well shoot better with the BHP, but I personally shoot better with a revolver.
Knowing me, I may very well OC the BHP and have a widowmaker in the pocket.
Whether you're a soldier, an LEO, or just an average joe civilian---a 15-round high capacity magazine provides a lot more protection than a 6-round widowmaker.
Aren't you the guy who said he's been shooting a revolver all his life, and just got the BHP a few weeks ago? Gee, "who'da thunk" you'd shoot the revolver better?!
If you must carry a widowmaker, that would be the smartest thing for you to do. Always the hi-cap semi-auto as your primary, and widowmaker as your backup.
Your memory is a bit faulty. The perps had already been neutralized, allowing Special Agent Edmundo Mireles to approach the vehicle they were in, and shoot them with his full sized six-shot FBI standard issue revolver at near-point blank range.
Both FBI and independent forensic examinations have concluded that perpetrator Matix was either unconscious or dead, and perpetrator Platt was completely incapacitated and near death---BEFORE Mireles was able to walk right up to the vehicle, stick his gun in the open window and shoot them both at extremely close range.
The shootout was already effectively over when Mireles shot them with his widowmaker. His widowmaker didn't stop the fight---the perps were already completely unable to return fire, due to being mortally wounded by shots fired earlier in the firefight.
Drgong
Member
Nope, first time shooting a revovler. I did get a BHP a few weeks ago, before that I had shot a friends Glock (don't remember the type, it was a 9mm) I shot rifles a lot, new to handguns.
The BHP is a great pistol, I like it a lot, but it is not very CCW. (and I did not buy it for CCW) I am not going to be raiding a crack house any time soon, and how many SD situations are going to require more then six shots, that your not better off just getting the heck out of dodge?
This is me shooting my BHP at 21 feet.
Not bad for someone who not experienced shooting handguns who learning the proper shooting technique.
With a revolver I can shoot them all inside the 8 circle (three out).
I am unsure if you ever been in an Self Defense situation, but I can confirm what most have said, that due to the situation your in, it is near impossible to think things though, and even though a well maintained autoloader is reliable, it WILL jam/stovepipe/ or malfunction in some way at some time, (hopefully not in a SD situation). In this case you have to...
have two hands free (which may not be the case)
carry out anti-jamming handling which is not the same as firing, and in the heat of the moment, you can only expect to do something that you practice on a regular basis, and while I am sure there are THR members who regularly practice clearing their semi-auto, most don't.
The majority of revolver clearing just requires you to pull the trigger. If you have a more serious failure of a revolver, you are FUBAR, but the chance of say, my (future) ruger Sp101 having that type of failure is the same as my browning Hi Power falling apart in my hands. In both cases, you’re FUBAR.
If I am in a alley and seven toughs come after me to do me harm, I am just going to shoot the leader and Run like #$#$#. And that is with a BHP or a Revolver, as I am not rambo.
Both revolvers and semi-autos have there uses, there is not a one size fit all gun. Do I trust the BHP to defend me if needed, yes, it is a good gun, but I cannot carry it in the summer concealed. I much rather have 6 rounds of .327 mag (or five of .357) then 8 of say, .380.
for 8 out of 10 people who could use a SD gun, a revolver is a btter gun as it requires less maintance, and a simple method of use in the heat of the moment. Not saying that a semi-auto is useless, buta revolver is far from useless and makes sense for a ton of people to have.
Hawk
Member
If I routinely shot a Nagant better than a BHP I would personally be inclined to accept the observation as a major clue-bat that I should favor revolvers. And by no small margin.
There might be wriggle room if it was a Grant Cunningham Python vs. a BHP but it's a fercryinoutloud Nagant vs a BHP.
Surely, that must be nature's way of trying to tell one something. I, for one, couldn't bring myself to argue the outcome. I'd probably be shopping an 8 round .357 as we speak.
There might be wriggle room if it was a Grant Cunningham Python vs. a BHP but it's a fercryinoutloud Nagant vs a BHP.
Surely, that must be nature's way of trying to tell one something. I, for one, couldn't bring myself to argue the outcome. I'd probably be shopping an 8 round .357 as we speak.
There are THOUSANDS of self-defense situations every year that require more than six shots.
Just to name one off the top of my head, there's the 70-year old military retiree from Louisville who had to fire 11 rounds from his semi-auto .40 cal, in order to take out two armed robbers in an apartment he was the landlord of.
He was inside the apartment with two armed perps at "bad breath" distance, and a long way from the door. Not much chance of a 70-year old making it all the way to the door without taking a few rounds in the back. No way could he outrun a couple guys about 50 years younger than himself.
It was obvious they were going to kill him. Since flight wasn't possible, he had to fight. He drew his .40 and had to fire 11 times, even then one of the perps was able to run out the door, collapsing in the yard.
15 rounds beats 6---ANY day and EVERY day.
Just to name one off the top of my head, there's the 70-year old military retiree from Louisville who had to fire 11 rounds from his semi-auto .40 cal, in order to take out two armed robbers in an apartment he was the landlord of.
He was inside the apartment with two armed perps at "bad breath" distance, and a long way from the door. Not much chance of a 70-year old making it all the way to the door without taking a few rounds in the back. No way could he outrun a couple guys about 50 years younger than himself.
It was obvious they were going to kill him. Since flight wasn't possible, he had to fight. He drew his .40 and had to fire 11 times, even then one of the perps was able to run out the door, collapsing in the yard.
15 rounds beats 6---ANY day and EVERY day.
Hawk
Member
15 > 6: no argument from me but they have to hit.
If, for whatever reason, one hits better with a wheelgun, it would seem prudent to go with that option. Perhaps in moonclip configuration or speedloader drills?
Sometimes it's just not worth trying to ice skate uphill.
If, for whatever reason, one hits better with a wheelgun, it would seem prudent to go with that option. Perhaps in moonclip configuration or speedloader drills?
Sometimes it's just not worth trying to ice skate uphill.
Drgong
Member
Indeed Hawk,
I love my BHP, it a fun gun to shoot, and it a peice of art really. I shot it and it seemed to be ok, I know it was more accurate then I was. Other people have shot my BHP and it not the gun problem if I don't hit well.
Then I shoot my Nagant and get better results, At worse if I buy a ruger and I can't shoot better then my BHP, then I know I have the worlds greatest Nagant
Handling revolvers seems more natural to me, If it turns out that I am worse in the end with the revolver, no great loss as I already have one of the best Autoloaders out there, and I will accept that I will need a lot of training to shoot well.
I am looking at a 5-6 round .357 or .327 as we speak actually, and if it confirms that I shoot better with revolvers, I will focus more on wheelguns needless to say.
I love my BHP, it a fun gun to shoot, and it a peice of art really. I shot it and it seemed to be ok, I know it was more accurate then I was. Other people have shot my BHP and it not the gun problem if I don't hit well.
Then I shoot my Nagant and get better results, At worse if I buy a ruger and I can't shoot better then my BHP, then I know I have the worlds greatest Nagant
Handling revolvers seems more natural to me, If it turns out that I am worse in the end with the revolver, no great loss as I already have one of the best Autoloaders out there, and I will accept that I will need a lot of training to shoot well.
I am looking at a 5-6 round .357 or .327 as we speak actually, and if it confirms that I shoot better with revolvers, I will focus more on wheelguns needless to say.
Drgong
Member
How many times did he hit the Bad guys? a Glock with a 30 round clip won't mean squat if you don't hit with it.
Coyote3855
Member
I dunno. But I just realized the last three handguns I bought were revolvers, as will the next two. I'm also starting to read the THR black powder section. You think it's a trend?
Tom Servo
Member
Funny thing is, I personally know three people who've been in gunfights. Here's how it went:
- In no case were more than two shots fired
- The largest caliber was 9mm, followed by .38spl and .22 WMR.
- Targets were neutralized almost instantly.
- In each case, the shooter relied on training, sought cover and placed his shots.
"Spray and pray" only saves the bacon in movies.
Ultimately, it boils down to carrying a reliable gun you can shoot well. I've got nothing against a good automatic, but I hardly feel outgunned carrying a wheelgun.
(Does it count as a "widowmaker" if I'm single?)
Drgong
Member
the term widowmaker needs to be reserved for the AR-18...
Hawk
Member
Or...
DougDubya
Member
Revolvers make widows best when the shooter hits what he aims at.
As Hawk said - if you can't hit with six, how can you do better with 18?
As Hawk said - if you can't hit with six, how can you do better with 18?
Sistema1927
Member
If I knew that I was going to be in a gunfight I would carry a rifle.
However, for most of my daily commerce a J-frame in the pocket beats a hi-cap uber-semi left in the gunsafe.
Life is full of compromises.
However, for most of my daily commerce a J-frame in the pocket beats a hi-cap uber-semi left in the gunsafe.
Life is full of compromises.
David slew Goliath with one stone and had four to spare in case his brothers showed up.
The only incident I was involved in where I had to draw a gun I didn't even have to fire a shot.
For other defensive scenarios, hit what you're aiming at, and you won't need that many shots. But for those who want to carry that many rounds - more power to you.
But if I need that many rounds methinks I should have opted for the "bring a rifle...and friends" credo.
Or perhaps I shouldn't be operating in such a climate...
When I do carry a slide action I prefer a 1911 w/ 7-rd dimpled mags anyway. So for me there isn't much of a difference whether I carry a 5 shot snubby or a single-stack 1911.
The only incident I was involved in where I had to draw a gun I didn't even have to fire a shot.
For other defensive scenarios, hit what you're aiming at, and you won't need that many shots. But for those who want to carry that many rounds - more power to you.
But if I need that many rounds methinks I should have opted for the "bring a rifle...and friends" credo.
Or perhaps I shouldn't be operating in such a climate...
When I do carry a slide action I prefer a 1911 w/ 7-rd dimpled mags anyway. So for me there isn't much of a difference whether I carry a 5 shot snubby or a single-stack 1911.
- Status
