Why are 1911 triggers so revered?

[greyling22]

I agree with zerodefect. I can't believe nobody else really makes a SA trigger. (I know of the hi-power, cz75sa and the witness elite match, and that's about it outside of .22's.)

 

[JTQ]

greyling22 wrote,
I can't believe nobody else really makes a SA trigger.

Give a big "welcome back" to the Sip P210.
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p210.aspx

 

[greyling22]

$2000 pistol eeeeeeek!

but yes, apparently I missed one. Thanks.

 

[Bobson]

Ew. That P210 is the ugliest gun I've ever seen. Just my opinion, obviously. Pretty unsightly though.

Also, I was going to post up a thread asking this a while back, but decided against it. But now that this thread is here, I'll go for it. A while back, I decided to fondle a 1911 for the first time, since I was in a gun shop anyway. I picked out a Springfield (don't recall which one it was, but I wanna say one of the GI models), and the guy behind the counter handed it to me. I [made sure the gun was empty, etc, etc] racked the slide, pulled the trigger, and cringed. Put the gun down on the counter, said thanks, and walked away from the 1911 section of the glass case.

Worst trigger I've ever felt. Is this common before getting 1911 triggers worked on? Or was there somehow a bunch of sand and grit mixed in with the double-length spring that must have been behind that trigger?

 

[TonyT]

Since 1911's were designed strict for SA shooting the triggers can be tuned to provide very crisp let off and minimal reset. The pistols with DA/SA triggers do not allow that to be done as well. That being said I have seen some absolutely super triggers on CZ's performed by Angus Hobdell.

 

[rcmodel]

Is this common before getting 1911 triggers worked on?

No.
But the trigger of a stock GI 1911A1 could be one of the ugliest triggers you ever pulled. The military was way more concerned about safety and ND's then match grade accuracy.

If the Springfield GI you handled was more or less correct, it would have a 5.5 to 6.5 trigger pull with some creep, and a lot of over-travel.
And probably some roughness until shot enough to wear off the baddies.

On the other hand, an out of the box Match grade Springfield might have one of the best triggers you ever felt, with a light 3 1/2 pound pull, crisp break, and no over-travel..

rc

 

[rellascout]

That P210 is the ugliest gun I've ever seen. Just my opinion, obviously. Pretty unsightly though.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The Swiss P210 guns, not the P210 Legend, will out shoot 99% of even tuned 1911s right out of the box. They shoot 2" groups at 50 meters and ship with the test target to prove it.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I agree with zerodefect. I can't believe nobody else really makes a SA trigger. (I know of the hi-power, cz75sa and the witness elite match, and that's about it outside of .22's.)

You just aren't looking around, enough. SIG now has several 220 models with SA ONLY triggers. And most gun makers have a SA model stuck somewhere in their catalog. They just aren't as much in demand, and don't justify a lot of advertising hype.

As noted above, some of the Witness and CZ models have splendid SA triggers, when they've been tuned by somebody who knows how to do it. (And they typically improve with use, if you don't have it tuned.)

Beretta made a number of SA only models, including the COMBAT and CB, based on the 92. I guess the demand wasn't great enough for Beretta to continue them.

 

[Walkalong]

some of the Witness and CZ models have splendid SA triggers, when they've been tuned by somebody who knows how to do it

Agreed.

 

[GLOOB]

1. They can be made fantastic.
2. That's their only redeeming quality, compared to other modern alternatives.

 

[MrIzhevsk]

Does anybody else make a gun that has a similar trigger pull as a 1911? That is, moving on a horizontal plane, and not on a hinge system?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Does anybody else make a gun that has a similar trigger pull as a 1911? That is, moving on a horizontal plane, and not on a hinge system?

I really don't think THAT ("hinged" or "not hinged") aspect of the trigger makes that much difference.

For some of these guns, the trigger isn't moving THAT far that you can tell much difference. I would argue that the difference, where it exists, has more to do with the sear and hammer, than how the trigger puts things in motion.



.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

Perhaps one of the finest out of the box .22 Match gun triggers can be found on the Model 41 S&W.

And it has a hinged trigger with a draw-bar linking it to the sear.

rc

 

[RC20]

A single action trigger in a 1911 Semi Auto is a pure design. It has no compromises trying to do more than one thing, which is let off the sear to fire the gun. (note a Revolver is a different beast and the Colt Python was the finest example of hos smooth and sweet a Revolver DA could be).

A DA/SA trigger in a semi auto has to function in two modes, let alone cock the hammer. Its impossible to get the fine crisp let off that a 1911 has (or can have, GI guns excepting the factory guns are all better than the best DA/SA Semi Auto of which I am a devout follower).

Ergo there is a compromise or limitation on the function in a DA/SA Semi Auto. You can make it better, but not as good as a run of the mill 1911.

On the other hand the DA/SA Semi Auto triggers can be made pretty good, close enough as not to be an issue for vast majorly of the user.

 

[RC20]

+

1

Perhaps one of the finest out of the box .22 Match gun triggers can be found on the Model 41 S&W.

And it has a hinged trigger with a draw-bar linking it to the sear.

True, it is one sweet trigger, scary if you have been shooting other stuff, it fires just thinking about it.

 

[GLOOB]

^ I wonder how it compares to my 686-1. The trigger doesn't appear to move before or during the break. And after it breaks, it moves just a hair - forward.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

1911 triggers are awesome, that is why.

 

[rodinal220]

pak29:"Is there some inherent design advantage to the trigger mechanism on 1911s that makes them crisper or superior to other guns in single-action mode?"

Yes,JMB designed one of THE best pistol triggers period.It can be tuned to perfection and has a very quick reset as pointed out by Tuner.Its no mystery as to why the 1911 platform dominates many pistol sports.

 

[tuj]

My Les Baer I bought used came setup with a 1.75lb trigger. It was scary light. But it passed all the safety tests, so I think its a testament to the design that its possible to get that light and remain a safe trigger. I swapped sear springs to a new Colt and I now have a 3.5lb trigger with the same incredible break. Virtually no take-up, no over-travel. I have an IZH-35m target pistol and I thought it had a very good trigger until I felt the Baer.

 

[BCRider]

I seriously doubt that JMB planned on his creation still being popular over 100 years after he created it. Also a LOT of the reasons for various design features would have been centered on how to produce the pistol and how it would assemble and field strip with minimal tool usage. If you look at the design in that light then all the features work, including the horizontally running trigger with no hinge pin that requires a punch to remove.

As for tuning? Well, any trigger can be tuned. And I've shot guns with triggers that are as good as a well tuned 1911. Oddly enough they were all single action guns made by other companies. The magic with the 1911 is that they ARE popular so a lot of effort has been put into learning what makes them work. And that ability to tune them for a variety of uses ensures that they will continue to be popular.

So getting back to Pak54's original question.... No, the 1911 isn't the only gun which will change how you view triggers. But it's likely the one you'll run across. And yes, as pointed out by a couple of posters a 1911 trigger can be positively horrible or it can feel like the finest micro switch ever made or set up for crisp but firm feel for safer self defense use. It can do all that with just a bit of tuning. Yet as noted there are no lack of out of the box guns which have excellent triggers. It just depends on how the factory set them up and how much attention the assembler pays to getting things right. The triggers on the budget 1911's will not see the same level of attention during assembly. So expect some variety in their feel. Just like the variety you'll get in any $500 to $600 gun. But once you cross into 4 figures expect the trigger to be something really special.... just as special as one of the $500 DA/SA guns with a nice trigger job but without the takeup that is unavoidable in a DA/SA gun being shot in SA mode.

 

[Rail Driver]

Get rid of the barrel link and bushing, higher capactiy frame, even 9mm maybe?

That pretty much sounds like a Browning Hi-Power to me. Some people called the Hi-Power a 1911, refined. I think that if it hadn't been for the French influence (mag safety), and if the Hi-Power was made in .45ACP, it really would be. I'd love to see a custom Hi-Power in .45ACP, with no mag safety and all the nice things we love about these two designs combined.

I absolutely love my Colt 1911 trigger (work done by Bill Alexander; Tallahassee, FL). I used to hear people talk about what a great trigger such and such 1911 had on it, and I never really knew what people were talking about. Now that I've fired (and subsequently spent an obscene amount of money on) a 1911 I understand what they mean. I carry a G26 as backup and the trigger is the expected mushy Glock trigger. I used to have a Browning Hi-Power (T-series, Belgian) that I stupidly traded for something not even close to worth it... The trigger was a little heavy, but smooth and with a consistent break.

My 1911 trigger has a short takeup, no creep at all. A sharp break at 3.4lbs every time, and a very short reset. The first shot is smooth, and follow up shots are fast and easy. The 1911 trigger allows me to get a MUCH faster rate of fire than the Glock or other DA/SA triggers I've tried.

 

[brickeyee]

The most complicated part of the 1911 trigger action is the disconnector.

Luckily it has no part in actual trigger operation of tripping the sear out of engagement with the hammer.

The cross pin moves through each of the four corners off the disconnecter as the gun cycles and the disconnector moves up and down and forward and back., but it all takes place after the hammer has fallen.

 

[HisSoldier]

The 1911 trigger train is symmetrical. all forces are shared to both sides and there is no asymmetrical bending or loading forces in it. The BHP on the other hand is a nightmare of asymmetrical forces going all round robin hoods barn for one reason, to accommodate the double stack mag. I've read that it's to avoid patent infringement of his own design in the 1911 but I don't think that was it.

Having worked over my own BHP trigger really makes me appreciate the 1911. The sole reasoning behind the 1911 ignition train is to apply a symmetrical force on a symmetrical sear with balanced forces, I really think JMB was thinking of how to optimize the trigger forces, and he accomplished the goal.

 

[harmon rabb]

Today, I shot my kel-tec P11 and my springfield EMP (tuned by Dawson) back to back. I'm not sure a bigger trigger dichotomy exists. The P11 is god awful, and my EMP is like sex personified as a trigger, pull is around 3lbs with a bit of slack, zero creep, and a very short reset. I managed to short stroke the P11 a bunch of times, something I have never done even with a DA revolver.

Care to guess which target looked better?

1911's are easy to shoot well, and the trigger is one of the reasons for that. As such, they're popular.

 

[HKGuns]

Because the alternative, in most cases, was a revolver.