why are O/U or SxS shotguns so expensive?

[scythefwd]

I not talking a custom hand fitted piece of art that was tailored to the shooter, I'm talking the mass produced stuff like the Super Condors, etc.

They are much simpler actions (load and unload) compared to a pump or a semi-auto. And if you're working with a dual trigger setup, it's pretty simple there too, so why do they cost 2x the cost of a NIB pump from either mossberg or winchester?

This is all entry level guns I"m talking about here.

Extractors are very simple to make. And the actual frame would be pretty simple to manufacture I would expect. So is getting a good lockup really that difficult? I can get a single barrel for 150 new, so why triple the cost to get a basic double? Is it really that much more difficult getting the two triggers in there? I'm not talking about a single trigger setup, which would be a bit more complicated.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

From what I understand, a lot of work is put into getting the barrels to shoot same POA.

Some of the Entry level coach guns are pretty inexpensive. So are field grade hunting models.


Dive into some pawnshops are LGS's that have a large used stock.

 

[scythefwd]

Thats the thing though, they will only shoot same POI at a certain distance. It is simple geometry. If they are parallel, then they shoot very close, but not exact same poi. As the shot spreads, you get more overlap.

If they are angling in towards each other, then they will shoot same POI at a certain distance, but then they cross.

In my opinion, parallel would be the best bet, or a point of convergence about 40y out for a 20ga, and 50y out for a 12ga.

At least with parallel you just have to learn how much to lead with each barrel. With converging shot patters, you have a lot more to think about (like how far the target is vs. where you need to lead or trail due to the criss cross pattering of the two barrels). With parallel barrels, you are talking 1" max between the two shot group centers.

The cheapest NEW SxS I have seen is about 400. I can get a single shot for 150-200. A pump for under 200.

 

[JohnBT]

Then there's the lateral motion to consider. When you fire the right barrel of a SxS and the gun tries to go right. Fire the left barrel and the gun goes left a tad - or more if you're not holding on. It complicates things when you're trying to figure out how to put the barrels together. It's not quite as simple as locking everything up tight in some kind of vise and sighting them in.

An article I read on double rifles made sighting in sound like a real chore with the big bores.

JT

 

[scythefwd]

John, that effect would be amplified if you don't have the barrels parallel. Yes, it is there no matter what because the barrel is not on the same axis at the pivot (stock in the shoulder). Once you have the design, repeating it should be pretty easy.

 

[Steve C]

Two barrels, two ignition actions, twice as many parts.

 

[JohnBT]

"because the barrel is not on the same axis at the pivot (stock in the shoulder)"

And that is offset even more if the gun has cast built into the stock.

 

[suzukisam]

I have a stoeger coach gun and I fully expected it to be a piece of junk. I thought 200.00 was worth the risk so I picked it up, after I refinished the stock it looked like a nice shotgun and I have taken many doves with it. I find it to be very accurate. I actually stopped shooting much more expensive shotguns cause I just enjoy it so much. with a 20ga the recoil is manageable, and rather pleasant.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

O\U's and SxS shotguns are not simple machines. Hand fitting goes into making a well regulated double gun. The biggest problem with inexpensive double guns is they just don't have proper fitting and barrels can be set out of whack.
Pumps and autos are much easier to mass produce. Stamped metal parts, bing bang, done. They are not that complicated, even though they look it.

 

[scythefwd]

Sour grapes, we'll have to disagree on that. They are simple, but they are also precisely made. A lot of hand fitting goes into a good knife, but they are also simple.

With the ability of a modern CNC mill to do .00001 tolerances, there shouldn't be much hand fitting required anymore.

 

[db_tanker]

I really like my Yldiz 12 ga O/U.

Has extra chokes and was fairly cheap when I got it. I noticed now that they run about 400 at academy which isn't much more than what I paid for it. Mine came with extra chokes and the wrench.

 

[JohnBT]

"With the ability of a modern CNC mill to do .00001 tolerances, there shouldn't be much hand fitting required anymore. "

The CNC machines don't do assembly that I'm aware of. Somebody has to put the barrels and other parts together.

$400 for a Stoeger is dirt cheap for a SxS. Aren't they still made in Turkey where labor costs less? Don't plan on shooting it 50,000 times a year at clays and having it last a lifetime, or maybe a decade. It's Beretta's least expensive SxS iirc. The acquired it when they bought Sako.

 

[scythefwd]

All guns require assembly, if the parts are properly designed and made, there isn't much if any hand alteration (fitting) required to do so.

The 400 stoeger was what I was thinking about when I said bottom end... I'm not talking about a fianchi or parker quality build here but a mass produced tool, not piece of art.

 

[suzukisam]

no body is going to by a stoeger uplander as a competition weapon.. I've put about 1,000-2,000 rounds through mine with no issues..

I'm not really offended by purchasing a "cheap" gun that requires a little tuning or fitting. but some are. I own top tier firearms and I own some stoeger and taurus stuff.. as long as you purchase with the right expectations, you won't be disappointed. if you want a clean little brush gun the "cheap" sxs and o/u are fine.. if you need to impress someone at the club...better think again... although I put a polished mirror finish on mine, and it's really a fine gun now

 

[withdrawn34]

The barrel is the most expensive single component of most non super expensive firearms. It would make sense that a shotgun that has multiple barrels costs more... but as far as the difference past that, I suppose the reasons above.

For me, I guess you have to *really* want one to buy one. I think a Hawk 982, 870, or 500 offers much more value, even for clay games. A lot of professional games shooters also use semi-automatic shotguns, not sxs or o/u.

For the most part, I think it has to do more with nostalgia and "just because." I believe there are also some advantages as far as "swingability." Buying an expensive O/U, for example, could be sort of like buying a Bentley when a Hyundai would get you to point B just the same. Sometimes it goes beyond just pure functionality.

 

[JohnBT]

"All guns require assembly, if the parts are properly designed and made, there isn't much if any hand alteration (fitting) required to do so."

Who puts the SxS barrels together and adds the rib? You don't call that fitting? How about fitting the barrels to the receiver so the gun is safe to shoot? Have you actually looked into what it takes to put a SxS together, even an inexpensive one?

From time to time the question is asked about fitting a second set of SxS barrels to an inexpensive gun. The answer is that it would cost more than buying a second gun. We're talking about a level of skill much higher than what is required by an assembly line worker at Glock or Kimber slapping parts together from bins. Or from the Remington Express assembly line.

John

 

[JohnBT]

Part 2, let's look at Beretta guns. I assume you would agree that they are made to high standards on good equipment. Let's see what Cole Gunsmithing, the Beretta experts, has to say about slapping a new set of factory barrels on a receiver. They're talking O/U, buth the process is about the same.

https://colegun.com/barrels-beretta-barrels-c-3_75.html

"At Cole Gunsmithing we have one of the world's largest selection of shotgun barrels for Beretta O/U models. All of these barrels will require correct fitting. Once fitted to a gun, there is some interchangeability with other frames, but we strongly caution against it, each barrel should only be used with the gun it has been properly fitted to! We charge $125 to fit a new barrel set, as we have extensive experience with this work, we do the job quickly and correctly, protecting your investment in a high quality firearm!"

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Sour grapes, we'll have to disagree on that. They are simple, but they are also precisely made. A lot of hand fitting goes into a good knife, but they are also simple.

With the ability of a modern CNC mill to do .00001 tolerances, there shouldn't be much hand fitting required anymore.

No problem my friend.
My point was, CNC machining or not, there is still far more hands on assembly in a SxS or O\U than a pump or semi auto. If not done correctly, you've got a very heavy walking stick.
The budget double guns may get the job done for a little while, but at some point down the road, you'll understand why they only cost $400.00.

To everyone: most of us are not rich so we buy what we can afford. I'm no different. It took a long time for me to aquire a couple $2000+ shotguns. Anyone looking for an inexpensive SxS should consider buying an older Winchester, ithaca or SKB. Wounderful guns that won't break the bank.

 

[451 Detonics]

Also bear in mind you are basically buying two firearms in many cases, two barrels, two firing mechanisms, and in the case of a single trigger some fancy parts to make it change from one barrel to another. Regulating the barrels isn't such a big deal these days with lasers and computers but you still need to build the gun.

 

[scythefwd]

Det, I would expect to pay double, but not 3x or more. But like you said, with the level of precision a piece can be assembled using jigs, cnc welding (they can be thousandth of an inch accurate as well), etc... mondern manufacturing makes the actual assembly of the guns simple. The development phase will raise the cost a little, but THAT much?

Now I did see some used savages in 12ga today at a pawn shop for about 300. That I see as reasonable for a no frills SxS.

John, to get the barrels properly spaced, you figure out what you want and then make a spacer that they are welded (brazed, silver solder, etc) to that aligns the barrels as you want them, goes full length, and has the rib and locking lug integrated. That is done to 1/100,000 inch tolerances on a cnc mill. Then you slide your barrels into place, flush at one end as needed. The action would require more work, but getting the barrels lined up and repeatably reproduced is a simple mechanical task (I've got some CNC/traditional machining and lathe work in my background).

The frame and barrels/barrel lugs are what takes the brunt of the force out of the metal work. The trigger components take a shock, but not nearly that much. You can literally used stamped steel to make those, so manufacturing costs are pretty small there too. Yes, you do have to hand fit the firing mechanism together, and it is a bit more complicated than a single shot.... but the materials and build technology should only cost 1.75x what the single shot does since you don't have to mill out a second frame, locking mechanism, rail, stock, or forearm.

 

[MJ]

I don't think you want an anwer you want buck history. One thing you forget is the best came from Europe and you must know thw work is in the receiver halfes this was all h and fitted. You also havn't said if you h ave shot a European O/U. Have you? Another thing you should know is how sweet a true hand fitted Belgium O/U from the 50's. I hope you work this out and some day locate a true classic O/U for $50.

Here is a Browning made in Belgium in 1955 it's listed on several boards just now.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...posed-reduced-price-850&p=1730383#post1730383

Good luck

 

[scythefwd]

mj, I'm not talking about classic shotguns. I'm talking new. I have fired a damascus barreled parker, would that meet your standards?

classics are worth every cent, simply because they aren't made anymore. A new gun, on the otherhand can be mass produced cheaply, even if the command a moderate sum. Like I said earlier, I'm not talking about competition level guns. I'm talking about the "bargin basement" guns like the coach guns.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Even at the "bargain basement" double guns, your still paying for hand labor and additional materials used. The more time an actual employee has to have his hands on any product, your going to pay for it. Some of the cost with O\U's is the fact that they are popular. If pump shotguns were all the rage, they would probably be 30% more expensive due to demand.
If your buying a Stoeger coach gun, I hope your aware your buying a cheap gun in every sense of the word. I've seen Stoegers fall apart in less than a 1000 rounds. I'm not familiar with coach guns and couldn't say who makes a good one or even a decent one.
I know your initial question was why double guns are more money, but $400 doesn't buy much anymore. The fact is, if you want quality, it's going to cost you money. $400 bucks aint it.

 

[traptrixter]

Put simply, they are two guns in one. Usually two chokes which eliminates the posibility of two shot strings meeting at the same point no matter the angle they are assembled. I grew up shooting a Fox Sterlingworth 16 guage SXS and learned to treat each barrel individually. Ducks over decoys were taken with the left barrel (modified). Pass shots were made with the full choke on the right. Double guns usually desplay more craftmanship and finer wood is used. We are speaking of entry level guns of course.

 

[au01st]

Picked up my Stoeger Condor O/U in a trade for a $200 revolver. I've put maybe 100 rounds through it in two months, whereas my Mossberg 500 sees 100rds every Saturday morning. I like the Stoeger, it's nice enough, it has a purpose, and it does it well. You can get a gun cheap enough if you are patient and ready to jump when the opportunity presents itself. That's usually the problem, when I see a deal, I'm low on expendable income, and when I'm flush everything costs more. Example: a Stoeger Cougar 9mm went on clearance at my local store for 1/2 the normal price, and I'm paying for stuff damaged in the recent storms...