Why are Saiga firearms so cheap are the guns terrible or just because they're Russian

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Not sure if I will ever add the Saiga longer barreled rifles or shotties as I have bolties for the serious target duties. Now if I can just find the time and money to get them all converted.
Don't have a bolt gun, and can't afford one this year. :(

I was a bit torn between the carbine and the long-barrel, but the main complaint of Saiga owners (if they have any complaints) seems to be the short sight radius. An extra four inches can't hurt. Also, without a flash suppressor or even a muzzle brake, folks were claiming there was significant muzzle flash from the carbine. So between target, hunting (not in PA, obviously) and SHTF, it seemed like a good "all around" choice.

--Len.
 
The short sighting radius, or I should say the shorter sighting radius, is an attribute of any kalashnikov pattern rifle. However, even with its shorter sighting radius when compared other rifles (like say an AR-15), it is still accurate enough for its intended purposes. In other words, unless your goal is to shoot the tiniest groups possible from a bench, the shorter sighting radius of the saiga or any other kalashnikov pattern rifle isn't really a problem, and you can always mount an optic sight if you want a better long range sighting option. Having said that, if you don't want to mount an optic sight, and for whatever reason want a longer sighting radius anyway, there are several excellent AK gunsmiths, namely Will Hayden, Tony Rumore, and Marc Krebs, that can supply a converted Saiga with the rear sight moved to the back of the receiver cover, providing a sighting radius very close to an AR15.

Will, Tony, and Marc's websites are:

http://www.redstick-firearms.com/firearms2/firearms.html

http://www.tromix.com/saiga-rifles.htm

http://www.krebscustom.com/KalashnikovRifles.shtml


Many people believe that a rear sight mounted on a rifle with a detachable receiver cover won't hold zero, but it apparently holds zero well enough, since both the Finns and the Israelis use such a sighting arrangement on their Valmet and Galil rifles,

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as43-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as23-e.htm

, and I doubt the Finns and Israelis would have kept using such a sighting arrangment all these years if it didn't hold pretty close to zero.

By the way, Rifle Shooter magazine did a review of a Marc Krebs' converted Saiga a year or two ago, which can be viewed at:
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/avtomat_080304/
 
Thumbhole stocks and hi-cap magazines

Since these guns are coming into the US now with these stocks, and since you are swapping a foreign part for a foreign part there are no 922r concerns.

But you still have to use 10-round and less magazines, correct? Where does it say in the law that keeping it all imported parts but using hi-capacity magazines is ok?

I ask since I've seen pics here of Saiga's with thumbhole stocks and high-capacity magazines, and the mention that these aren't affected by 922r.
 
Storm yhtomit BobTheTomato

The pictured Saiga of Storms is illegal. The government has decreed that high capacity mags are 'non sporting', and the use in the Saiga takes it out of its (as imported) sporting purpose category.

Non-sporting AKs are not imported. The WASRs you see everywhere are imported as single stack 10 round only rifles. Century mills out the mag well and adds parts to comply with 922r. The Century Yugos and Hungarian AKs are all rebuilt here in the USA from parts kits, with the appropriate US parts for 922r compliance.


You guys with the Saiga shotgun questions: You can use up to a 10 round magazine on them w/o having to change any parts. The gov't has decreed that '10 rounds' is a 'sporting' number. Anything over 10 rounds is considered "non sporting" and you have to make the shotgun compliant with 922r
 
You guys with the Saiga shotgun questions: You can use up to a 10 round magazine on them w/o having to change any parts. The gov't has decreed that '10 rounds' is a 'sporting' number. Anything over 10 rounds is considered "non sporting" and you have to make the shotgun compliant with 922r

Not quite, for the Saiga 12 you can use a 10 round magazine in it without worrying about 922r compliance, but not because the ATF considers 10 rounds sporting (for shotguns they don't). Also, while a 10 round magazine won't cause 922r compliance issues, an 8 round magazine will. Using a 10 round magazine is okay, but if you use an 8 round magazine you must make the shotgun 922r compliant. Yes, I am being serious and this is not a joke, this is how it really is, here's why.........

To begin with, when it comes to judging whether a longarm meets sporting requirements for importability, the ATF's rules on magazine capacity is different for shotguns than for rifles. For a rifle the magazine must hold 10 (or fewer) rounds to be considered sporting, but for shotguns the limit is 5 (or fewer) rounds. Don't ask me why the ATF decided on different magazine capacities for rifles and shotguns, I have no idea (and I doubt the ATF could explain it either).

Next, the specifics of 922r compliance must be noted as it relates to the Saiga rifles and shotguns in their imported configuration. Again, 922r compliance means that when converting an imported longarm to a non-sporting configuration, no more than 10 of its countable parts can be foreign made, so some of its countable parts must be replaced with U.S. made parts to bring the foreign countable part total down to 10 or less. The countable parts list has already been noted by other posters, so I won't bother repeating it, but the important thing is that the ATF considers Saiga rifles to have 14 countable parts, while they consider the Saiga shotgun to have 13 countable parts.

So to legally convert a Saiga rifle to a non-sporting configuration at least 4 parts must be replaced with U.S. made parts, and to legally convert a Saiga shotgun to a non-sporting configuration 3 parts must be replaced (and if any countable parts are added, like a flash suppressor or a pistol grip, these additional parts must also be U.S. made, the goal is always to keep the foreign part count total to 10 or less).

Now, since a magazine counts as 3 parts (magazine body, follower, and floor plate), this means that with a magazine that holds more than 5 rounds, a Saiga 12 shotgun will be made non-sporting, but it can also simultaneously be made 922r compliant as long as the magazine is U.S. made. Currently the only 10 round magazines available are U.S. made (by AGP), and the only 8 round magazines are Russian made (by Izhmash). Both these magazines exceed the 5 round sporting limit, and so if inserted into a Saiga 12 make it non-sporting, but since the 10 round magazine is U.S. made, it reduces the foreign part count total on a stock Saiga 12 from 13 to 10, and so 922r compliance is achieved.

To summarize:

Stock Saiga 12 shotgun + Russian 5 round magazine = sporting and 13 countable foreign parts, so no 922r compliance issues

Stock Saiga 12 shotgun + Russian 8 round magazine = non-sporting and 13 countable foreign parts, so not 922r compliant

Stock Saiga 12 shotgun + U.S. 10 round magazine = non-sporting but only 10 countable foreign parts, so 922r compliant

Also,

Stock Saiga 12 shotgun + U.S. 20 round drum magazine = non-sporting but still only 10 countable foreign parts, so still definitely 922r compliant



This ridiculous situation brought to you by the ATF.:)
 
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I saw an easy way to change over an AK to be single-shot.... it takes some doing (and ruining a good mag) but all you have to do is drill a small hole in the bottom of the mag and install a dowel to take up some space under the follower.... thus the gun acts like it is single shot (only leave enough room for one round) and does comply with PA guidelines.... if you want the gun to be for plinking, just change the mag.

This works because the regulations in PA only specify the total amount of rounds the gun could hold in present configuration, but not if you switched out the mag =)

Of course, if you hunt like this, do not carry any unmodified mags.
 
I stock saiga rifles & 30rd mags. they are cheap but function well. I would rather have a mini 14 or mini 30 but the difference in price is staggering. I really don't think they are in the same class. fit and finish of rugers are MUCH better quality than saiga. expect 4moa and you won't be dissapointed. the high cap mags are not very common, and you need to buy the steel mags that are converted in the US to fit saiga rifles.
 
I thought Saigas must be rubbish due to their low cost and rattle can looking finish but now that I have had the chance to experience the shotgun and the 308 rifle for myself I can honestly say they are equal or superior to any rifle that can be had for $1000 or less.

Reasonable accuracy
Never malfunctions
Easy to maintain
Lot's of custom options


I give them an A+
 
saiga 223 is probably one of the best shooting rifles out there. me and my wifes son went to the gun range he took his ar15 i took my saiga 223 we were shooting cheap ammo made by siver bear and his ar 15 did not make it through one 30 round clip it jammed on him 2 times,i shot 200+rounds without any problem.
 
saiga 223 is probably one of the best shooting rifles out there. me and my wifes son went to the gun range he took his ar15 i took my saiga 223 we were shooting cheap ammo made by siver bear and his ar 15 did not make it through one 30 round clip it jammed on him 2 times,i shot 200+rounds without any problem.

Most AR's hate cheap ammo.
 
I have owned a few AKs. I own an Arsenal SLR-95, Arsenal SLR-106FR and Tromix .223 Saiga now. I owned an SSR-99 and two VEPRs in the past.

I have to say that that the Tromix Saiga the best-shooting and nicest-made rifle among all of them (except for the milled Bulgarian Arsenal SLR-95, which is a very special rifle). The Saiga was converted by Tromix and then I added the Ultimak gas tube, Bulgarian hand guard, Aimpoint red dot scope, Blue Force Gear - Vickers sling, and Ace Galil-style pistol grip. I also polished the trigger pull.

The Saiga is nice and light, takes Bulgarian waffle mags, shoots great with 55 and 62 grain Russian ammo, and is very sturdy considering it weighs next to nothing. There hasn't been one failure yet and it shoots 2-3 MOA with Barnaul or Silver Bear ammo. Tromix did an excellent job converting this one. The rivet and welding work on the receiver is perfect.

I like this rifle so much I just bought another one (stock configuration, unconverted) to have as a spare to get converted by Tony @ Tromix later when he has time.

Pic:
saiga2a.jpg
 
saiga or not

i am thinking of buying a saiga 410. shot gun and i want to know if the saiga can fire 3" sabo shell?
 
Guys you can buy high cap mags made to fit the saigas as they are and you do not break any rules. Just as if you take an sks and stick a tapco mag in it that holds 20 rounds. 922 comes into play when you do something to make a sporter rifle an "assault rifle", then you can't just convert it by buying a pistol grip, you have to change other parts to u.s. made parts. The magazine alone does not does not make it an assault rifle; this is why tapco only issues 922 warnings with it's stocks and grips, not magazines, so if capacity is the only issue, stick with factory mags, they aren't that expensive. Far less hassle than the conversion in my book.
 
cz85cmbt said:
Guys you can buy high cap mags made to fit the saigas as they are and you do not break any rules. Just as if you take an sks and stick a tapco mag in it that holds 20 rounds. 922 comes into play when you do something to make a sporter rifle an "assault rifle", then you can't just convert it by buying a pistol grip, you have to change other parts to u.s. made parts. The magazine alone does not does not make it an assault rifle; this is why tapco only issues 922 warnings with it's stocks and grips, not magazines, so if capacity is the only issue, stick with factory mags, they aren't that expensive. Far less hassle than the conversion in my book.
This is very bad advice, please don't offer it any more. You are telling people that it's okay to commit a federal felony.

The revenuers consider any more than a 10 round capacity magazine to be "evil". Just because your SureFire 30 round Saiga mag will fit and operate in a Saiga w/o any modification doesn't mean it's legal to do so.

The revenuers also consider any rifle that can accept "non sporting" mags to be "evil", and such rifles have to be 922r compliant.
 
3"shotgun shells in the saiga 410.

will the 3" shells work in the saiga 410. shotgun?:confused:
 
Nalioth you are incorrect. An unconverted saiga, as in you bought and all you did was stick a 20 round magazine in it is absolutely legal. Be careful of where you get your info, I get mine by reading the actual law, 925(d)(3) and the IRS sec.5845 exclude high cap mags alone as being a determining feature. The second you put a pistol grip on that gun then you fall under 922r. Examples, I can by an sks choate stock that is a regular sporter stock and buy tapco mag and I'm legal. I buy a tapco t-6 stock with a pistol grip and buy tapco 20 rnd mags I am breaking the law.
 
cz85cmbt said:
Nalioth you are incorrect. An unconverted saiga, as in you bought and all you did was stick a 20 round magazine in it is absolutely legal. Be careful of where you get your info, I get mine by reading the actual law, 925(d)(3) and the IRS sec.5845 exclude high cap mags alone as being a determining feature.
The law excludes "detachable mags" as a determining feature - no capacity mentioned.

The DOJ/whoever prohibits importation of rifles with mag capacities over 10 rounds, ergo, a factory Saiga (no US parts) with a 20 or 30 round SureFire sticking out of it is not in "importable condition" and is illegal under 922(r).
 
Yea, and the ATF really cares. I definitely don't care. I personally like the standard sporter stock on my saiga .223. I've bought a few 30 round magazines, not really for plinking. Usually, a 30 round banana mag simply gets in the way. Hard to shoot from a bench or prone. I prefer the standard 10 round. But I have the 30 round mags "Just in Case". And "IF" the Just in case situation ever arose; e.g. SHTF with society; where I "NEEDED" to use a 30 round magazine; then I doubt very much that the local police, ATF, or anyone else would care 1 shiite if I had a 30 round mag or 75 round drum in my saiga. And they sure wouldn't care about 922r. They'd be caring about society, our country, and why the SHTF in the first place. And the ATF isn't going to local ranges trying to bust someone for having a 30 round magazine in their rife. Most of them have no idea what 922r says anyway. And with all the legal AK's and such out there with 30 round magazines; they won't even know what a saiga is. Just like Kaliforniastan and the Communist People's Republic of New Jersey won't give a crap if you have 30 round magazines if the SHTF. For "Normal" plinking; 30 rounders are a PITA. For real world if I need it; screw 922r and state laws. If the situation is that bad that I need a 30 round magazine, then the state/government/country will have a lot more important issues to worry about.
 
nalioth you are not referring to the laws correctly, 922r only are rules if you are assembling a prohibited import weapon to functioning status OR converting an imported rifle into a clone of one of the many import banned guns. The IRS and ATF have a list of features that convert a sporting rifle into a copy or assault weapon. That list DOES NOT include magazines as a feature that turns a sporter into an assualt weapon. You are correct however that imports coming in as whole, functioning rifles cannot have a magazine capacity over 10. In no way am I trying to speak down to any one or try to say you that you are stupid. There are many websites that tell the public just what you stated, but they are incorrect. You have to look at each reg and wear it leads and it is certainly not linear connect the dot thinking. I'm sure many ATF agents do not know the laws themselves, in fact I know many do not. Like I said Tapco is now a huge company that has lawyers and realized by selling kits without 922r warning they could be held liable that is why their stock kits have warning and the magazines do not. An easy way to look at it is a U.S. magazine can only help you attain 922r compliance and cannot turn your import gun into an assault rifle.
 
cz85cmbt said:
nalioth you are not referring to the laws correctly, 922r only are rules if you are assembling a prohibited import weapon to functioning status OR converting an imported rifle into a clone of one of the many import banned guns.
The ATF considers inserting a magazine to be "assembling a weapon".


You can do what you like in your own home, but please stop giving potentially felonious advice here.
 
cz85cmbt ,

Sorry but your wrong.

Here is why.


922(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation.



http://www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/w...an_release.txt
On November 15, 1997, in his radio address to the nation,
President Clinton announced that the Treasury Department
would temporarily suspend the importation of certain modified
assault weapons to review whether these weapons should be allowed
to enter the country. Today, the Secretary of the Treasury
informed the President that most of the weapons studied should
be generally banned from importation.

Under current law (the 1968 Gun Control Act), the Treasury
Department has the obligation to restrict the importation of
firearms unless they are determined to be "particularly suitable
for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." After taking
several months to review the weapons in question, the Treasury
Department has concluded that modified semiautomatic assault
rifles that accept large capacity military magazines --or LCMM
rifles --do not meet the sporting purposes test and are generally
not importable.
Since passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act, Administrations of
both parties have repeatedly invoked this authority to ensure
that only legitimate sporting weapons are brought into the
country. In 1968, the Act was used to ban the importation of
Saturday Night Specials and other small and inexpensive
handguns; in 1984 and 1986, it was used to ban the importation of
the Striker-12 and USAS-12 riot control shotguns; in 1989, it was
used to ban the importation of 43 semiautomatic assault rifles;
and in 1993, its authority was invoked to propose a ban on the
importation of certain assault pistols, though the Assault
Weapons Ban of 1994 made this executive action unnecessary.

The more than 50 models of firearms affected by today's decision
are modified versions of military assault weapons that were
banned by the Bush Administration in 1989, or by the Assault
Weapons Ban of 1994. Most of these models are based on the AK 47
assault rifle, but some are variants of the Uzi, FN-FAL, HK 91
and 93, and SIG SG550.

Since 1998, LCMM rifles are not importable.
[rifles that accept large capacity military magazines --or LCMM
rifles]

The ATF will not give a permit to importers to allow import of
rifles that have any capacity above 10 cartridges since the law changed
in 1998. As the 922r law stands, IF IT CAN"T BE IMPORTED IN THAT CONFIGURATION THEN IT CAN"T BE CREATED IN AMERICA USING MORE THAN 10 SPECIFIC PARTS. 922R was a law made to prevent virtually anyone from
converting an import into what can't be imported in the first place.
Nalioth is correct in his statement. There are a few ATF letters posted
about this very thing look them up. Some of us have spent years dealing with this same topic and it gets old having to argue what is already known.
The simple fact is "No you can't drop a high capacity mag legally into a rifle that stands to have more than 10 foreign parts once the mag locks in."
Don't forget that the mag counts as 3 parts so technically the rifle is not fully assembled until all the parts are connected. Inserting a mag is considered assembling because you are connecting the final pieces.
 
Saigas cheap?

I haven't seen one available for $247 shipped since..... well since I bought mine!

Honestly... a stamped receiver AK was designed to be economical to manufacture and I'm quite sure the Izmash plant has had enough practice doing so and can bang them out in mass quantities for a song.
 
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