Why Arent 9mm Revolvers More Popular?

[C0untZer0]

I'm going to buy the 929 for sure, if I can possibly save money I'll get the 986.

I eat lunch out twice a week at $8.00 a pop. I eat dinner out with my kids about twice a week and that usually runs $35.00 each time.

If I make my own lunch every day and only eat out once a week, I will have the money to buy the 986 in a year.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the N frame is DOA. No one in their right mind is going to buy a 9mm when they can have a 45 for eight fiddy.

Not when you have a bunch of competitors who want to try 10-shot Minor revolver against the 8-shot Major guns.

25% more rounds in a faster recovering gun, might overcome the Minor scoring disadvantage

 

[rbernie]

Yeah, the gamer community is clearly the target market for the new S&W 9x19 wheelgun offerings and NOT the SD community. Shame, but I guess that's a clue as to who's saying that they're willing to line up and spend their money....

 

[C0untZer0]

Yeah, the gamer community is clearly the target market for the new S&W 9x19 wheelgun offerings and NOT the SD community. Shame, but I guess that's a clue as to who's saying that they're willing to line up and spend their money....

Many folks from the SD segment are the ones who line up to deride 9mm revolvers and raise the question "why 9mm when there is 357 magnum?"

And it's been discussed on this thread quite a bit...

My point is I agree with your assessment that S&W is targeting competitors. Probably they did their homework and came to their own conclusions of "Why Aren't 9mm Revolvers More Popular?"

 

[9mmepiphany]

A more important question for them would have been, "Who's really willing to spend the money for one?"

 

[jameslovesjammie]

The 929 is the brainchild of Jerry Miculek; competition revolver shooter. He has been trying to get Smith to make it for the past 10 years or so.

I don't think there was probably even a discussion at Smith about making it a SD gun, with their failed (but good) 9mm wheelguns the past few years.

I agree with the comments about if you want one, then you better get it now. They made some 627's in .38 Super that are harder to come by in the used market these days. Even the awesome 610 has been discontinued.

 

[KenW.]

In my Grandfather's voice; "Millimeters? That's what them NAZIs used against me! We fought a world war so we wouldn't have to use those things!"

 

[Luger_carbine]

Georg Luger tried to sell his pistol chambered for 45 to the U.S. Army, it was a good pistol.

A luger chambered in .45 ACP has subsequently become the highest priced semi-auto pistol ever.

http://most-expensive.com/handgun

 

[C0untZer0]

Jerry has been waiting 15 years for this, I've been waiting about 25 years for these revolvers...

 

[Bezoar]

Why has the no rimmed cartridge in a revolver not caught on as well?

1. moon clips. People read stories, horror stories about how bad they can be to load/unload with bare hands. and dont want to buy a 10 dollar loading tool....

2. moon clip issues
if it bends in pocket it can drop cartridges
they only last so long. and if they get too far out of toloreance, they wont let the
gun close.

3. Cylinder gap.
We all accept it removes some power from the bullet going down range. Lots of people insist upon using the same marginally performing bullets that they use in 3 inch barreled semi autos. Remove another 40fps from the bullet and it now fails to barely hit the mean minimum energy/velocity to expand.

4. to get off teh shelf ammo, your looking at 115 to 124 grain bullets of the expanding style. These bullets arent going to be great at penetrating if they expand when they are at teh bottom bracket of velocity figure..

 

[heyjoe]

the mooon clip issue is a non issue with smith and wesson 940. in 21 years not once has a round fallen off the clip in my pocket and never did they bend anywhere near enough to affect the function of the gun. that is with carrying two in a watch pocket of dungarees, not in a holder.

 

[C0untZer0]

3. Cylinder gap.
We all accept it removes some power from the bullet going down range. Lots of people insist upon using the same marginally performing bullets that they use in 3 inch barreled semi autos. Remove another 40fps from the bullet and it now fails to barely hit the mean minimum energy/velocity to expand.

to get off the shelf ammo, your looking at 115 to 124 grain bullets of the expanding style. These bullets arent going to be great at penetrating if they expand when they are at the bottom bracket of velocity figure..

Losing a little velocity is probably a good thing for the Underwood +P+ loaded Gold Dots.

The bullet is probably only a few FPS away from breaking up as it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c

 

[torqem]

No, the 357 is NOT "where it's at". A smaller % of the handguns sold, every year for decades now, are DA revolvers. No police dept of any size has issued them for over 20 years now. They are a dead horse. We might want to replicate the stopping power average of the round, but not the gun, and certainly not the difficulty of control of rapidfire, when using a lw, compact ccw gun. A 357 snubby is a contradiction in terms. It loses both power/effect and controlabity, gaining you nothing, really. Big, heavy guns just don't get carried much, concealed. Therefore they don't get used much for defense. If I want a 9mm, why not use a thin, 7 shot, sub 1lb, 5.5"x4" auto? Pocket calibers should come in pocket guns. Bigger, heavier guns can use much more potent rounds.

 

[Biohazard1993]

Well I wouldn't go using +p or +p+ in a taurus 9mm revolver Not that it may not handle it (I dont think it would for long with +p+) but they definatly do not hold warranty, and most other companies even get a hint or thought that +p+ were shot out of the gun (+p+ is not considered spec as is self loaded/reloaded ammunition) they will laugh the warranty off while rolling on the floor. I have had a few companies not care about self loaded or reloaded ammunition as long as the gun was not wearing/breaking to quick but +p+ is a real no no in almost any manufactures warranty book, unless stated otherwise of course.

 

[torqem]

why would your pistol not be loaded, anyway? wear it if you are awake. Put it between mattress and springs, near your head, your side of the bed as you sleep. Surely no kid can access same while you sleep? Wow, an unloaded revolver as a defenive tool?

 

[Elkins45]

That is why Michigan Highway Patrol nixed 940s as backup guns. Out of shape moon clips rendered them USELESS.

Wow. If you need to reload your backup gun you are having a REALLY bad day!

The idea of moon clips appeals to me, but now that S&W is making 38's fitted for moon clips that sell for <$500 then the elusive and expensive 940 seems less appealing.

One instance where I can see a 9mm revolver making a lot of sense is the circumstance where a person has access to a whole bunch of 9mm ammo they don't have to pay for. Being able to shoot your revolver for free has a certain appeal.

 

[C0untZer0]

You mean shooting a revolver for the sake of shooting a revolver, and unless they choose a 9mm revolver they'd have to buy their own ammo to be able to do that?

I think it's more likely to apply with the 40 S&W, although I have heard more departments are switching back to the 9mm.

 

[farscott]

As someone who once owned a three-inch S&W M547, had a stock Ruger SP-101 in 9x19, and has a Gemini Customs 9x19 SP-101, I have some insights into the pluses and minuses of the 9x19 in a DA revolver.

1) One plus is the shorter 9x19 round offers a faster reload than the longer .38 Special and .357 Magnum cases when comparing speedloaders and moon clips.

2) Another plus is that 9x19 ammo used to be less expensive than .38 Special or .357 Magnum although handloading closes the gap.

3) The M547 did not need moon clips to extract the 9x19 cases, but there was no speedloader method of reloading. At least, I never found one. So the 547 reloads slower than an equivalent K-frame in .38 or .357.

4) The SP-101 needs moon clips and offers a fast reload, but one has to be careful to not bend the clips when removing the empty cases from the moon clips. Some ammo brands fit the clips better than others, so experimenting with ammo was required. I remember Federal Hydra-Shok rounds slipping from the clips while Remington Golden Sabers were tough to remove.

5) I also have Gemini SP-101s in .357 Magnum, and those guns are the equal of the 9x19 guns while offering the ability to reload using moon clips, speed strips, or speed loaders. A lot more effort has gone into developing products to reload the .38 and .357, and it shows in the end results. I never use the .357 moon clips, much preferring the Bianchi Speed Strip, which offers the ability to top off the gun in a way not available in the 9x19 variants. One can carry both speed strips and speed loaders, choosing how to reload. The .357 guns offer more flexibility.

 

[D4000]

Question about cylinders

I've been looking at the Alfa Proj 9mm revolvers, which are now available here, in 4.5 and 6 inch models.

As well, there are two different cylinder styles, 9mm, and 9mm classic. The 9mm cylinder is shortened to match the length of a 9x19 round, with the barrel extending inside the frame to the cylinder, while the classic cylinder is sized for a 38/357 round. I haven't had a chance to measure one, but that would mean length appropriate to about a 33mm case.

What I am trying to figure out is the practical differences this might cause.

Some thoughts, considering the classic cylinder compared to the shorter one:

1. The barrel being the same length, the bullet will have about an extra 14mm to accelerate, inside the cylinder. All other things being equal, this might result in increased velocity.

2. The bullet will not leave the cylinder until it has moved an additional 14mm. This will give more time to burn powder and thus increase pressure, and more time for pressure to drop and gasses to cool, due to expansion. Is the pressure at the cylinder gap the same, higher, or lower in the classic cylinder?

3. Due to the longer cylinder, the gasses will acquire a forward velocity before reaching the cylinder gap. Bernoulli's Principle tells us that, all other things being equal, the sideways pressure driving gasses out of the cylinder gap will be reduced. What effects will this have, on velocity, gas escape, noise, etc?

Comments and analysis are solicited...

 

[D4000]

Ammunition cost

While there have been comments on ammunition cost, hard apples and apples comparisons seem to be rare.

With that in mind, I went to one of my favourite 'well priced ammo' sites, and dug up some actual minimum cost numbers.

These are for new ammunition (not reloads), and are similar, though not identical, across manufacturers for the same type - basic vanilla ammunition, whatever was cheapest.

38 special .48/rd
45 ACP .48/rd
.357 magnum .64/rd
9x19 .25/rd

I have noticed that the 9mm is far more often in stock than any of the others.

While one can argue that reloading drops the cost, it will do so for all rounds, and some people do not or cannot reload.

Commercially reloaded rounds are less expensive across the board, but follow a similar cost pattern, and are rarely in stock long.

 

[C0untZer0]

It seems to me that the overall dimensions (Délka zbraně) of the Classic and the 92xx are the same. So that means the 92xx models has a slightly longer barrel that extends through the frame window to meet the cylinder.

If that is the case you are trading barrel length for cylinder length (freebore) in the Classic.

http://www.strelivo-zbrane.cz/zbrane-na-zbrojni-prukaz/revolvery/revolvery-alfa-para-9mm-luger/

So IMO, the 92xx is better.

For somewhat of a comparison, the S&W 929 has the shortened cylinder and is geared toward competitors. They could have designed a frame specifically around the 9mm cartridge, but they didn't. So given that, if there were an advantage to having a longer cylinder fill the window they would have done it. I can only assume that having the barrel come back through the window to meet the cylinder yields better performance.

 

[natman]

Why don't people buy 9mm revolvers?

Ballistics: There's nothing the 9mm can do that the 38 Spl / 38 Spl +p / 357 Magnum can't do.

Reliability. Revolvers work better with straight walled, rimmed cartridges.

 

[Biohazard1993]

While there have been comments on ammunition cost, hard apples and apples comparisons seem to be rare.

With that in mind, I went to one of my favourite 'well priced ammo' sites, and dug up some actual minimum cost numbers.

These are for new ammunition (not reloads), and are similar, though not identical, across manufacturers for the same type - basic vanilla ammunition, whatever was cheapest.

38 special .48/rd
45 ACP .48/rd
.357 magnum .64/rd
9x19 .25/rd

I have noticed that the 9mm is far more often in stock than any of the others.

While one can argue that reloading drops the cost, it will do so for all rounds, and some people do not or cannot reload.

Commercially reloaded rounds are less expensive across the board, but follow a similar cost pattern, and are rarely in stock long.

basic rounds mean nothing across different manufaturers. you can buy a "vanilla" round from one manufacturer and a "vanilla" round from another and pay up to .15 a bullet. remingtons "vanilla" (UMC) rounds span many different calibers to easily compare (especially when on the same shelf, as the internet has many different brands not in the same caliber as of late, too much mix and match for me) the 9mm pretty close compared to 38 special, and comparing a similar velocity (no point in comparing standard 9 to 357) round of 9mm to 357 the magnum has about a .04-.07 gap on cash, the magnum being cheaper, at least in the shops around butler pa. Ive found the Dicks sporting goods at the mall has better prices than most of what i can find online... finally I get a break from buying online.

 

[GEM]

3) The M547 did not need moon clips to extract the 9x19 cases, but there was no speedloader method of reloading. At least, I never found one. So the 547 reloads slower than an equivalent K-frame in .38 or .357.

There were HKS Speedloaders for 547s. I remember seeing them in the stores. Google it and tons of discussion will come up.

Here's an ad: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/...48-k-frame-only-colt-mk3-22-mag.aspx?a=532465

Look for the 7635. Whether they are still available, dunno?

 

[C0untZer0]

I called some more dealers today, not-so-local, but I am still checking prices on the S&W 929.

One fairly large dealer in my area said that a lot of people have been calling about the S&W 929 and he also said it would probably be 4 months before he got one.