Why build a 1911 when you can make a low cost one better?

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I am without 1911. There is a Colt series 80 in my dads safe that will eventually be mine and I will cherish it as dads 1911, but truthfully I dislike most things about that gun. I have looked at this very topic time and time again and I just can’t find a good starting point. My hopes have been to find a beater to build, but even a beater will almost certainly still be more expensive than a higher end RIA. I dislike fat and slow too so I will be going away from traditional chamber anyways, likely 10mm auto. The RIA guns seem to be a bargain, but then again there are citadel, Taurus, and others to consider. Or you sit on your laurels hoping to find a deal on a beat up gun.
 
I am without 1911. There is a Colt series 80 in my dads safe that will eventually be mine and I will cherish it as dads 1911, but truthfully I dislike most things about that gun. I have looked at this very topic time and time again and I just can’t find a good starting point. My hopes have been to find a beater to build, but even a beater will almost certainly still be more expensive than a higher end RIA. I dislike fat and slow too so I will be going away from traditional chamber anyways, likely 10mm auto. The RIA guns seem to be a bargain, but then again there are citadel, Taurus, and others to consider. Or you sit on your laurels hoping to find a deal on a beat up gun.

If you are going to go low end then the RIA is the best of the bunch. I would take a RIA over Citadel or Taurus. Honestly you could not give me a Taurus. You need to determine what you want out of your 1911. Do you want one just to have one or one to shoot. If you are going to shoot it you have to ask yourself how you are going to shoot it. Competition, target pistol, range toy or carry gun. From there you make your choices and live with it. If you get it wrong sell the gun rinse and repeat. Its not that hard to figure out. Its not complicated.

I will just leave you with this thought. "All great American Patriots should own a 1911 chamber in 45 ACP. The 1911 chambered in 45 ACP is the the worlds finest close quarters sidearm ever made… and, “King of feedway stoppages.” - Ken Hackathron
 
:confused: same company

Yes they are both made by Armscor but the "extras" you are paying for on a Citadel over the RIA when you are shopping the bargain basement of 1911s are not worth it to me. If I am really being honest I wouldn't buy either but if I wanted a beater 1911 the RIA would be my choice. I would keep my $50 and get a RIA GI vs the Citadel. At that price point a cast frame vs forged frame is a non-issue IMHO.
 
Just remember a 400 gun with a 1000 in upgrades is still a 400 gun some may not even want it not knowing the quality of work. I’m not trying to derail this thread but a gun you customized isn’t the same as one you built. So if it’s getting certain features a quality one from the start is your best bet. If you are entry level swapping a few small parts may be the best bet. If you want a true quality gun starting from scratch is the best bet assuming you think you can actually make a working gun.
 
Mn Fats

I built my first 1911 on the cheap, mostly because I didn't have the money to have one custom built to my specifications. I started with an Essex frame (think I paid $45 for it back then), and proceeded to spend countless hours on it with a set of Swiss files trying to get the holes to line-up properly! I then wasted more money on one of those surplus 1911 internal parts kits, ending up having to replace most of it with quality parts from proven manufacturers. Once I finally got it all together and working right I added a Springfield Armory slide and barrel and was getting pretty decent accuracy out of it. Ended up giving the .38 Super upper to a friend of mine and kept the Essex frame for a future build. Finally found a TacSol .22 conversion and have been very pleased with how well it works.

I'm also in agreement with others here who say an RIA is a decent 1911 if all you just want is a decent 1911; in other words not really worth putting a whole lot of time, money, and effort into totally customizing one. My advice is to start with quality parts in every aspect of your build and take your time putting it all together. Keep us updated with whatever route you take with your build.

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Armscor/Rock Island quality is all over the board. As a dealer, I've owned more than a vast majority and I simply stopped carrying them because the quality was so hit and miss, their warranty lead times were very long at the time, and it was nearly impossible to talk to someone on the phone to follow up with a customer's returned gun. If you want an opinion from an FFL dealer, building a "custom" 1911 from a Rock Island is a great way to throw away a lot of money. DIY "custom" 1911s of any kind only hold a fraction of their value. Plan on keeping the gun forever, because you'll have to practically give it away to sell it. If you're looking for a "project" or something to tinker with to learn how to start fitting 1911 parts, then a Rock Island is a cheap way to learn without worrying about destroying something expensive. Just don't ever expect to get much of your money back when you to go sell and don't expect many people to be impressed with your work.

You're money well ahead if you spend extra up front and just buy the actual gun you want. With all of the various 1911 models from all the manufacturers, there's a good chance there's already the gun you want being made from a company that will likely be a lot better made than you can do yourself and will certainly retain it's value better.

A 1911 is not anything like an AR-15. You don't "build" a 1911 and you don't just buy aftermarket parts and expect to swap them out. Go to YouTube and watch some of the 1911 build classes done with master gunsmith Bob Marvel and you'll quickly see there's a HUGE difference between DIY and true "custom" builds. Even buying a book on Amazon isn't going to get you anywhere near a true custom build quality gun.
 
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I have only built one 1911, and I did it buying a bare armscor frame and a parts kit from sarco, and then replacing most of the internal parts with Ed brown parts. I hand fit everything, ground the frame to a radius for a beavertail grip safety etc., made my own rosewood grips and then completely finished it.

My experience on that, is that there is a lot of variation in parts. I actually couldn't make the thumb safety that came in the parts kit function. Using the kunhausen manual, I determined that pretty much all of the parts were in spec, but when you have one part that is at the max dimension and a couple other parts that are at the minimum dimension, it still doesn't work. You will have this anytime you buy a mixed bag of parts, but the better quality parts you go with the less likely you are to have problems, or at least the more you stick with one brand the more consistent they will be on tolerances.

You also have a certain level of doubt in your head as to the quality of parts you are using when you start with the bottom end, and that can mess with your head while you are fitting things. It gets very easy to blame this part or that part because of the price, rather than to actually trouble shoot and make it work. When you are working with an Ed Brown, or Wilson Combat quality level part, you tend to assume it is right and not just jump to conclusions that you need to swap things. Since I basically started with an RIA frame, I would surmise that my experience would hold true for buying an RIA pistol to base your build off of. It will work, but you will find yourself doubting things as problems arise and the "good parts" don't go right together with your "cheap parts". I think paying the extra up front for a fusion or caspian kit will give you more confidence as the project goes, but won't necessarily make you a better gun in the end.

The other advantage I see to buying a dedicated build frame/slide is you can generally get them in the finish (or lack thereof) of your choosing. The frame I bought did not match the finish of the slide I bought, and both required refinishing anyhow, after all modification and fitting was complete. Cleaning the parkerizing or whatever it was off of the frame was a pain, and also required me to remove material (a very small amount, but still). While I didn't take material off any critical areas, you can't really put it back. Starting with a bare metal frame, gives you a lot more options.

If this is your first build,than I would recommend going the RIA route. Start with a gun that works, and try to make it better. Starting off with a ziplock bag of parts and not knowing which ones were good or bad, made my first build a bit of a challenge. Change one part at a time and see where you end up.

If you are an experienced builder and are starting off with a vision of a particular gun in mind, then going with a caspian frame, or a fusion kit may be a better choice for you as you won't spend time trying to undo anything like parkerized finish, or over buffed edges you may find on a factory gun.
 
Armscor/Rock Island quality is all over the board. As a dealer, I've owned more than a vast majority and I simply stopped carrying them because the quality was so hit and miss, their warranty lead times were very long at the time, and it was nearly impossible to talk to someone on the phone to follow up with a customer's returned gun. If you want an opinion from an FFL dealer, building a "custom" 1911 from a Rock Island is a great way to throw away a lot of money. DIY "custom" 1911s of any kind only hold a fraction of their value. Plan on keeping the gun forever, because you'll have to practically give it away to sell it. If you're looking for a "project" or something to tinker with to learn how to start fitting 1911 parts, then a Rock Island is a cheap way to learn without worrying about destroying something expensive. Just don't ever expect to get much of your money back when you to go sell and don't expect many people to be impressed with your work.

You're money well ahead if you spend extra up front and just buy the actual gun you want. With all of the various 1911 models from all the manufacturers, there's a good chance there's already the gun you want being made from a company that will likely be a lot better made than you can do yourself and will certainly retain it's value better. Best of luck though!

Unfortunately, @Olympus speaks the truth. If you just like tinkering with 1911s, then buy a cheap, used RIA and have at it! (You will learn a lot!)
 
The premise of this thread is wrong in only one way. RIAs are too expensive to really test the theory. The gun you want to start with is the ATI Phillipine import. $329 delivered to your FFL from Smoky Mountain Guns and Ammo. I have one and love it. I would really get off on upgrading it.
 
I can’t remember the exact year I bought my mill spec SA but it was either late 80’s or early 90’s. I think I paid around $360 for it.

I own several 1911’s from Colt, SA and Kimber. While they’re not as refined as a custom pistol they’re pretty darn good. They’ve come a long way in manufacturing since my first SA. They don’t have all the whistles and bells of a top custom pistol but the essentials like accuracy, function, fit and trigger are there.

I’d guess my SA custom 45 would be in the $3000 range if I had one built today. IMO comparing it to my RO SA with Bomar type sights, there’s not $2000 difference in them. I’ve found pistols off the shelf can be excellent now.
 
The premise of this thread is wrong in only one way. RIAs are too expensive to really test the theory. The gun you want to start with is the ATI Phillipine import. $329 delivered to your FFL from Smoky Mountain Guns and Ammo. I have one and love it. I would really get off on upgrading it.

I live about 45 minutes from SMGA which is s bad thing. They have an amazing stock of firearms and around the corner is Buds which has an amazing selection too. What SMGA doesn’t have Buds does.
 
The premise of this thread is wrong in only one way. RIAs are too expensive to really test the theory. The gun you want to start with is the ATI Phillipine import. $329 delivered to your FFL from Smoky Mountain Guns and Ammo. I have one and love it. I would really get off on upgrading it.

Its still made by the same third world country. Sam vs. Armscor isn't exactly a winning argument.
 
Its still made by the same third world country. Sam vs. Armscor isn't exactly a winning argument.
It is supposed to be made by the same third world country. Using the Phillipine base gun was already established as the premise. Only the price was in question. You will never be able to accuse me of snobbery.
 
Its still made by the same third world country. Sam vs. Armscor isn't exactly a winning argument.

I am not sure why you are arguing with me? We are basically saying the same thing. If you are buying a 3rd world 1911 at bargain basement prices get the cheapest one you can get that has a reasonable chance of running right out of the box. For my money that is a RIA. nothing about the Citadel tells me I am getting something extra for my $50. The reliability is going to be basically the same % the Citadel might not look as ****ty. So what. By the way we are not arguing. You might be but I am not. Peace out this thread is going nowwhere. I will go back to re-reading The Colt 45 Automatic A Shop Manual by Kuhnhausen
 
Yes they are both made by Armscor but the "extras" you are paying for on a Citadel over the RIA when you are shopping the bargain basement of 1911s are not worth it to me. If I am really being honest I wouldn't buy either but if I wanted a beater 1911 the RIA would be my choice. I would keep my $50 and get a RIA GI vs the Citadel. At that price point a cast frame vs forged frame is a non-issue IMHO.

Didn't realize there were extras with these two... :thumbdown:
 
I am not sure why you are arguing with me? We are basically saying the same thing. If you are buying a 3rd world 1911 at bargain basement prices get the cheapest one you can get that has a reasonable chance of running right out of the box. For my money that is a RIA. nothing about the Citadel tells me I am getting something extra for my $50. The reliability is going to be basically the same % the Citadel might not look as ****ty. So what. By the way we are not arguing. You might be but I am not. Peace out this thread is going nowwhere. I will go back to re-reading The Colt 45 Automatic A Shop Manual by Kuhnhausen

Not arguing with you at all.. I did inadvertently quote ya but fixed it..
Under 500 I'm buying a Glock, M&P, XD!!!
 
I’ve done several.

I’d start with the RIA. The parts you ruin, and you will, are cheaper. RIA is a good choice to begin learning, and in the end if you’re careful, humble, and patient you’ll end up with an excellent gun. Then you can decide if you want to invest in the parts and tools needed to build first class guns. It’s not simple or cheap, but it is addictive. The tool list is fairly long, depending on how tight / accurate / reliable a pistol you are going for.

Read Schumann’s 1911 timing, for example. (But forget the .020 clearance, I’ve never been able to get that much.). Good luck.
 
Before I got in to dabbling with M1911's I bought a book or two on working on M1911s. This was back in the mid-1980s before the internet and printed material was the main information of the day.

This was most valuable in helping tinker with all parts of an M1911. I would definitely not dig into an M1911 without some good information to reference.

Jerry Kuhnhausen has a good book on M1911. There are some others from pre-1980 time frame that are also good resources.

To that end, I would be very cautious of stuff posted on You Tube until you have some basic M1911 knowledge and can weed out the trash from the good information.

Secondly, there are a few tools that are available that make fitting M1911 parts easier. By themselves, they are not too expensive but I will admit when you invest in many of them they can add up. The gauges for fitting beaver tail grip safeties are very beneficial. Something to consider when building an M1911. If you do not want to keep them, you probably could pass them on to someone else that is interested in building an M1911.

One of these days, I'll build another M1911 from scratch. But currently, I've been making some minor upgrades to pistols that I currently own. The last project was installing a 38/45 Clerke barrel in a Colt Gold Cup. It shoots great with 130 grain RN bullets. The next phase of this project is to see how it shoots with nominal 135 grain SWC bullets. I have to find time to get the casting gear out of storage to cast some of the bullets.
 
It’s not simple or cheap, but it is addictive. The tool list is fairly long, depending on how tight / accurate / reliable a pistol you are going for.

I have not gotten into tightening the slide to reduce the slide to frame clearances. My builds are not meant to be "bullseye competition" accuracy so I have not worked with this.

There is a tool that is designed to do this and it is a bit pricey.
 
Like building up your car, house, etc, translates to many areas of learning and DIY'ing. These projects are challenges we take on and that makes life interesting. When we hit those later years looking back on that bucket list of adventures leaving them unchecked is an empty spot. Do it and fulfill that list.
 
I have not gotten into tightening the slide to reduce the slide to frame clearances. My builds are not meant to be "bullseye competition" accuracy so I have not worked with this.

There is a tool that is designed to do this and it is a bit pricey.

Slide fitting bar(s) and files. Also lug cutters & files, sear jigs & stones, good calipers, good Swiss files, lapping & polishing stuff, barrel centering fixture, & etc. & etc. all are pricey. Just depends on how much time, money, and interest is on hand.

I do say it’s a lot of fun shooting a gilt-edged accurate, rock solid reliable, pretty pistol you’ve seen to yourself. But you’re unlikely to save money and you sure won’t save time.

Also my experience has been that ‘drop-in match grade’ parts aren’t much better than stock. Use good to-be-fitted stuff from Kart, Schuemann, Baer, Brown, Wilson, C&C, EGW, and so on.

Also, if really interested, ‘Pistolsmithing’ by George Nonte is a great reference, both general and 1911 specific, but long out of print and hard to find
 
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