Why build a 1911 when you can make a low cost one better?

[gbw]

You can start with easier things. First make sure the pistol is reliable with ball and lead swc bullets. If it isn't, fix that first. Nothing more aggravating than a gun that fails.

Then maybe a fitted bushing, better sights, and work on getting a clean crisp trigger of the length you prefer. You'll be surprised at the improvement in accuracy. Stipple or checker the front strap. An extended mag. release that operate smoothly is always a nice upgrade. Polish the hammer / sear drag surfaces and cocking the hammer will be butter smooth. You can polish the hammer face, frame / slide rails, mainspring hole, and mainspring strut and the gun will operate more smoothly - only polish, don't remove much metal at all. Look for any other high spots (you'll see some wear) and polish those as well.

Next, if you want to go further, fit a Kart barrel and link, but things begins to get more complex and expensive once you get to this phase.

I'd leave slide tightening for last. It does improve accuracy slightly if done right, and that ball bearing feel is nice. IF you know someone who is an expert TIG welder and someone whose an expert with a milling machine, then the frame rails can be welded and re-cut, provided the slide rails are already straight. It's much easier to peen and fit with a file and polished faced ball peen hammer. You won't get a Camp Perry fit, but you can remove nearly all slide slop this way. Again, limited by the straightness fo the slide. It's very hard to correct slide rails.

ONLY peen frame rails if the frame is cast of ductile iron, or is forged. Even then its a job you will want help with the first time. If you do tighten the slide, you will also have to re-fit the barrel 'cause the gun won't close into battery any more.

Always pay attention to the timing as you get deeper into all this.

When you get to wherever you're going to go with this gun, you might want to polish / re-blue, or get it hard chromed, or cera-coated. Brownells sells (or used to) 'Brazilian Rose Wood' grips that are one of th ebest deals I've seen.

Have fun, good luck.

 

[Mn Fats]

I’m all for learning a new skill, but to me you’re going to spend a lot of money on learning a skill that takes years of experience to perfect.

I was told something similar when I was 20 and wanted to do chainsaw carvings. Sold every one I made, even my first one, by the end of that summer. Still continue to do it.

I don't want a Baer or a Wilson or a Brown. I want to play around and build or semi build a gun. Start with a RIA, mess it up, see if it's for me then go from there.

Guys I'm not trying to shake up the handgun world here and compete with Ed Brown. The original question was answered well enough. Then this got turned in to more of a "no point" "probably better off not doing it" type thread.

The helpful posts here are excellent. Per THR.

 

[Mn Fats]

You can start with easier things. First make sure the pistol is reliable with ball and lead swc bullets. If it isn't, fix that first. Nothing more aggravating than a gun that fails.

Then maybe a fitted bushing, better sights, and work on getting a clean crisp trigger of the length you prefer. You'll be surprised at the improvement in accuracy. Stipple or checker the front strap. An extended mag. release that operate smoothly is always a nice upgrade. Polish the hammer / sear drag surfaces and cocking the hammer will be butter smooth. You can polish the hammer face, frame / slide rails, mainspring hole, and mainspring strut and the gun will operate more smoothly - only polish, don't remove much metal at all. Look for any other high spots (you'll see some wear) and polish those as well.

Next, if you want to go further, fit a Kart barrel and link, but things begins to get more complex and expensive once you get to this phase.

I'd leave slide tightening for last. It does improve accuracy slightly if done right, and that ball bearing feel is nice. IF you know someone who is an expert TIG welder and someone whose an expert with a milling machine, then the frame rails can be welded and re-cut, provided the slide rails are already straight. It's much easier to peen and fit with a file and polished faced ball peen hammer. You won't get a Camp Perry fit, but you can remove nearly all slide slop this way. Again, limited by the straightness fo the slide. It's very hard to correct slide rails.

ONLY peen frame rails if the frame is cast of ductile iron, or is forged. Even then its a job you will want help with the first time. If you do tighten the slide, you will also have to re-fit the barrel 'cause the gun won't close into battery any more.

Always pay attention to the timing as you get deeper into all this.

When you get to wherever you're going to go with this gun, you might want to polish / re-blue, or get it hard chromed, or cera-coated. Brownells sells (or used to) 'Brazilian Rose Wood' grips that are one of th ebest deals I've seen.

Have fun, good luck.

Great post, thank you!

 

[Olympus]

The helpful posts here are excellent. Per THR.

Just because a post doesn't follow someone else's ideas doesn't mean it's not helpful.

 

[JTQ]

Then this got turned in to more of a "no point" "probably better off not doing it" type thread.

The helpful posts here are excellent. Per THR.

I don't specifically know what posts you were referring to, but generally in the "I want to start building 1911's" threads, the first thing folks familiar with 1911's point out is building a 1911 is not anything like building a Glock or an AR.

Some people truly don't know this and scoff at the thought of it, and think we're morons for thinking they can't build a 1911 since they've previously built a couple of AR's and changed every part on their G17. On the other hand, some folks asking about building a 1911 do know it's significantly different, but get offended when it is pointed out. You can't win.

We don't know what your (or the generic you) knowledge base is so we start with the basic stuff. It takes a lot of tools, some specialized. The "average Joe" may not own any of them. On the other hand, a guy who is a mechanic, or metal worker, or other "handy man" type guy may have all of them. We just don't know. If you look at the list of tools in the "how-i-did-it" article, some guy who's an accountant, may look at the list of tools needed, and figure he may have to buy all of them, may figure the tools and parts are going to cost him nearly what a Les Baer would cost him and figure why bother, he just wants a 1911 that shoots accurately and functions properly. On the other hand, somebody may have all those tools, or not, but figure it's not the form or function that matters as much as the adventure, and the adventure, no matter how the gun turns out, is worth the cost to do it yourself.

If you put in your OP you were looking for the adventure, and weren't concerned about the cost and work, I suspect you'd have gotten some different responses.

 

[Mn Fats]

If you put in your OP you were looking for the adventure, and weren't concerned about the cost and work, I suspect you'd have gotten some different responses.

Really? Cost and work is something everyone understands when building anything. My original question was about what Caspian slide/frame build has over a RIA build. Some forgot that and replied with answers that have nothing to do with my op.

 

[JTQ]

Really? Cost and work is something everyone understands when building anything..

I'm hesitant to respond, as my last post didn't seem to work out, but my point is the cost and work of building a 1911 is exponentially greater than building an AR or Glock. I'm not saying you don't understand that, I still don't know, but that is a key part of the whole issue and perhaps why you are getting answers that seem to offend you. Some may have been given with the intent to offend you, though I can guarantee none of mine have, even though you seem to have reacted to my previous post as if you thought it was intended as such.

Start with a working RIA, and you have a working gun, even if you don't do anything to it. As I previously mentioned - page 1 maybe - when you start "improving" that RIA and it stops working, you can "un-improve" it by putting the original part back in, and now your 1911 is working again. Starting with the Caspian, as I also previously mentioned, probably gives you a truer lines, but starts as a bunch of parts that don't currently function. Do you have the skills and tools to get it to function? Maybe, we just don't know. Your choice, but we don't know what you want.

 

[JTQ]

My question is about building up a Rock Island vs a Caspian/Foster build. Aren't they both cast frames on forged slides? Wouldn't quality be the same and easier to buy an RIA and tune it up by fitting Brown, EGW etc parts?

As several folks have mentioned, no 1911 gunsmith is going to choose the RIA over the Caspian frame and slide. Is that the right choice for you? Maybe. We don't know.

 

[Mn Fats]

As several folks have mentioned, no 1911 gunsmith is going to choose the RIA over the Caspian frame and slide. Is that the right choice for you? Maybe. We don't know.

I was simply asking why not? If Ed Brown built a 1911 on a RIA frame and slide, it'd rival your average "smith's" Caspian, would it not?

As far as being offended, I never took it that way, more- people reacting in a condescending way on a guy that was just looking for a little more info on the topic at hand.

 

[Mn Fats]

I'm hesitant to respond, as my last post didn't seem to work out, but my point is the cost and work of building a 1911 is exponentially greater than building an AR or Glock. I'm not saying you don't understand that, I still don't know, but that is a key part of the whole issue and perhaps why you are getting answers that seem to offend you. Some may have been given with the intent to offend you, though I can guarantee none of mine have, even though you seem to have reacted to my previous post as if you thought it was intended as such.

Start with a working RIA, and you have a working gun, even if you don't do anything to it. As I previously mentioned - page 1 maybe - when you start "improving" that RIA and it stops working, you can "un-improve" it by putting the original part back in, and now your 1911 is working again. Starting with the Caspian, as I also previously mentioned, probably gives you a truer lines, but starts as a bunch of parts that don't currently function. Do you have the skills and tools to get it to function? Maybe, we just don't know. Your choice, but we don't know what you want.

I apologize for being defensive. You've given excellent advice.

 

[Olympus]

I was simply asking why not? If Ed Brown built a 1911 on a RIA frame and slide, it'd rival your average "smith's" Caspian, would it not?

As far as being offended, I never took it that way, more- people reacting in a condescending way on a guy that was just looking for a little more info on the topic at hand.

You asked why not and my first reply answered that. RIA and Caspian quality are miles apart! Sure, Ed Brown could build a fantastic gun on an RIA frame, but it would take WAY more work than simply using a Caspian frame to start with. So why would he choose to do that? He’s trying to run a business, not go bankrupt.

And just because two things are cast does not mean they are equally cast. The fact that you assumed both were equal since both RIA and Caspian are cast tells me you may not understand the entire “build” process to begin with.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Really? Cost and work is something everyone understands when building anything. My original question was about what Caspian slide/frame build has over a RIA build. Some forgot that and replied with answers that have nothing to do with my op.

That’s how the internet works

 

[Zerodefect]

Start with a working Colt. At least it'll have resale value or collect-ability. If you want to learn the hard way, get a Fusion kit, Caspian, or whatever. Avoid branded slides from cheapo companies.

I started out with a non-functional Kimber. It's fixed up, and taught me a lot about 1911's. But it's just a worthless cheapo 1911.

 

[Mn Fats]

The fact that you assumed both were equal since both RIA and Caspian are cast tells me you may not understand the entire “build” process to begin with.

I did. And I dont .

 

[JTQ]

I was simply asking why not? If Ed Brown built a 1911 on a RIA frame and slide, it'd rival your average "smith's" Caspian, would it not?

On the Caspian, the flats would be flatter, the holes would line up better, be more correct size-wise, cut cleaner, the straight parts would be straighter, the radiuses would be truer, etc. Since Ed cares about all that stuff, since most of his customers care about that stuff, Ed would have to do a whole lot more work straightening the lines of the RIA, probably fixing some hole locations, grinding or welding the grip tangs to get a beavertail to fit correctly, cutting or welding the sight dovetails to fit whatever sight he wanted, ...

It's easier, and cheaper, for a gunsmith to start with the better parts, since for a talented gunsmith, his most expensive "part" is his labor. The Caspian frame and slide will cost him less time fixing errors, and will most likely fit parts he intends to install in the gun.

The other thing is a 1911 gunsmith already knows how to build a 1911 that works. He's not figuring out how all the parts interact. He know's, so he doesn't need a working example in front of him. Somebody just starting out, while a book may be very helpful, probably needs to see a working 1911 in front of them to understand all the relationships between the parts.

 

[bannockburn]

JTQ

Somebody just starting out, while a book may be very helpful, probably needs to see a working 1911 in front of them to understand all the relationships between the parts.

Very true! I used a Springfield Armory M1911 A1 as my working model to help me assemble my parts gun. It was extremely valuable to be able to see exactly how the parts should work and to transfer that knowledge to the gun I was working on.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I just saving my pennies up to get one.

 

[joed]

Why buy a low end 1911 and then put money and work into it when you can just buy a better quality gun to start with?

In the service I hated the 1911 as it was the most inaccurate gun I ever shot. Finally in 2002 I decided to try another. My friend at the LGS explained to me to buy a 1911 that has all the features you want and has been accurized, never buy entry level as it's to expensive to add after market. I've lived by that rule, better to buy once and cry once.

 

[tark]

peening the slide is not a long term solution.. To do it correctly the frame rails have to be welded up and re-machined.

I worked for Les Baer for 21 years and I spent most of my time fitting frames to slides and checkering. But I did occasionally do all of the other jobs except for barrel lockup and final assembly.
Peening a slide is something I have never heard of. I have squeezed them in a vise to reduce side to side play. The frame is sometimes peened, using a steel plate inserted into the rails and hammered from the top, but you are correct that this isn't the best solution.

As is obvious, I'm no expert on 1911's but I've read that slide to frame fit isn't near as important as barrel to bushing to slide fit and aids in accuracy only very slightly. Correct me if im wrong someone.

The secret to 1911 accuracy is a combination of three factors; Barrel bushing fit, frame to slide fit and barrel lockup. That last is the most important of all. If the link is what is holding the barrel up while in battery, the pistol will not be accurate. A properly fitted barrel is held in battery by the slide stop bearing on the barrel lugs. Pick up a 1911 and push down on the barrel while the pistol is in battery. If the barrel moves, even slightly, the gun will not be as accurate as it could be.

 

[tark]

I have seen cheap 1911s, full of cheap aftermarket parts skillfully built into beautiful functional and very accurate guns..... that have impressed me greatly.

A silk purse made from a sow's ear can be an amazing thing to behold. And it is a very impressive feat!!!

OP, grab the cheapest frame and slide you can and go for it and have fun and learn. Get good at it, you can always go for you masterpiece later.

 

[bannockburn]

tark

The secret to 1911 accuracy is a combination of three factors; Barrel bushing fit, frame to slide fit and barrel lockup. That last is the most important of all. If the link is what is holding the barrel up while in battery, the pistol will not be accurate. A properly fitted barrel is held in battery by the slide stop bearing on the barrel lugs. Pick up a 1911 and push down on the barrel while the pistol is in battery. If the barrel moves, even slightly, the gun will not be as accurate as it could be.

Some years back I went looking for a new 1911 mainly for use as a range gun and to try out my handloads with. I went to a local gun shop where I knew the owner was also a 1911 gunsmith and he told me the exact same thing you just did in your post. I checked out several 1911s in the $750 to $900 price range and found two Colt Governments that had all of the factors you mentioned. He also said at the time he felt Colt was building some of the best 1911s they had ever built in a very long time.

Bought the Lightweight Model mainly because I liked the way it handled and balanced in my hand and that I might also use it for CCW on occasion. Came back a week or two later and picked up the other Government Model (blued with fixed sights), for my dedicated range gun. Both guns had great triggers, barrel bushing fit, slide to frame fit, and barrel to slide lock-up.

 

[aggie bill]

Here is what I did.

TISAS 1911
$400 gun plus approx. $300 in parts I have a gun that is good as or better than most custom made guns.
Trigger Pull out of the box 6.75 lbs.
Trigger Pull when completed 3.5 lbs.
Tightened and lapped slide to frame fit per Gene Shuey American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI)
S&A SERIES 70 PALMSWELL SAFETY (Beavertail) Fitted. $33
1911 K-HOLE SILVER TRIGGER Polished and fitted per Gene Shuey AGI. $19
CS210 ULTRA LIGHT MATCH SET and trigger job per Gene Shuey AGI. $151
1911 X-LONG HAMMER STRUT, TITANIUM. $12
1911 EXTENDED EJECTOR, 45 ACP fitted modified per Gene Shuey AGI. $18
NOWLIN SEAR SPRING polished and adjusted per Gene Shuey AGI. $7
Briley Drop-In Spherical Barrel Bushing with .580″ Ring 1911 Government Stainless Steel. $39
Slide stop filed and polished for easier installation per Gene Shuey AGI
Duracoat Finish by me (I prefer Duracoat as it is easier to use than Cerakote and every bit as durable)
Trijicon Night Sights
B&H Springs SFS Saftey System $90.
Bobtailed the frame for better concealed carry.
Everything I did to this 1911 is based on AGI’s courses including the gun I used based on Robert Dunlap’s, AGI review of This Turkish Made gun.
I have completed AGI's 1911 Pistolsmith course and have fine tuned and repaired many 1911's.
This is one of EDGs. The Tisas BR9 (Browning HP clone) shown below the 1911 is my other EDG.

 

[drband]

Looks nice!

 

[aggie bill]

my mistake not EDG but EDC

 

[Anchorite]

So, you might wind up spending as much money as an expensive pistol but just have an RI frame.

This is pretty much the answer to the OP question. Many, if not all of the Philippine-copy frames are out of spec dimensionaly compared to the “original” 1911 patterns as devised by JMB himself. Holes that are not aligned and off center, not the correct size, rails of differing size, etc. And therein lies the reason that your top 1911-smiths across the country won’t do work on such frames.

Spend your money wisely. Call a few of them and ask them what frames they work on and most importantly why.