Why can't people say whether they mean steel-cased shells, or s-c bullets?

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Most people don't really state exactly what they mean.
They say ammo, and usually imply only steel shells, as in the shells which hold the primers and gun powder. My curiosity only pertains to the fast things which zip through the bores and often hit a target.

Some people actually address bimetal-jacketed Bullets (thin zinc over a thin steel coating?), which I believe, have steel cores?
I was searching for any evaluation about how much extra wear is caused by modern Russian Bullets in my 9mm CZ PCR and Sigs P228 ('94) or Sig P6 ('01), and had very luck finding this specific topic.

I'm only talking about my handguns. Let's try to avoid the other, oft-confusing aspects of Russian ammo which can consist of about five different topics (primers, cases, actual case coating, "dirty" powder...). Many people seem confused, and can not separate different topics. Frustrating, and wastes time.

It might be very informative to find any testing down between copper-jacketed Lead cores, and bimetal jacketed steel (but is steel in the Russian inner coating And the core? Few people know---). With the velocity of 9mm bullets being much less than most rifle bullets, I suspect that such bimetal coated handgun bullets at 1,300 (etc) fps cause much less premature wear that what is caused by bimetal coated rifle bullets at 2,300 fps. Is this so?
 
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I believe you asked about this here before or in another forum. One of the issues that you are running into is how you ask the question and that your nomenclature is confusing. If I had not read your other thread I would not know from the above what you are asking about, especially as the above only complains that folks don't understand you.

What you are asking is this: Does anyone have any factual information that bullets jacketed with steel or steel alloys cause increased wear in handgun barrels? Most FMJ or JHP bullets are copper jacketed bullets, cupronickel or an alloy of those metals. It's rare in handgun bullets to see steel jacketed bullets (sometimes called bi-metal when the steel is alloyed with another metal). The Russians make them as a cost saving measure.

When a person in the U.S. asks about steel cased ammo it's assumed that they are asking about the case for the bullet rather than the bullet jacketing material. You are asking about the bullet jacket.

Here are a couple of discussions of that. Note that TULA makes the same mistake here by calling their steel jacketed bullets "Steel Cased" which is the same term they use for their actual steel cased bullets. This adds to any confusion:

https://www.defensivecarry.com/foru...ics/146891-steel-jacket-vs-copper-jacket.html

https://ammo.com/casing-type/steel

If you have any pics of steel jacketed bullets that would also help.

tipoc
 
One other point: what core the bullet has is not a part of your discussion. You raise that but it makes no difference here as the core (lead or steel) does not contact the rifling.
 
When a person in the U.S. asks about steel cased ammo it's assumed that they are asking about the case for the bullet rather than the bullet jacketing material. You are asking about the bullet jacket.
I've got to admit, while I'm familiar with steel cased ammo, I wasn't aware there were any steel projectiles, at least in the pistol ammo world.
 
Wolf, Tula and several of the other former Com-block loaders are or have in the past loaded bi-metal (copper/brass plated steel jacket) jacketed pistol bullets in some of their lines of pistol ammunition.

One example from Midway/Tula: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3...0-grain-full-metal-jacket-bi-metal-steel-case

This is a polymer coated steel cases with a lead core bi-metal jacket bullet.

Not 100% sure but I believe steel cored pistol bullets (even soft steel cores similar to what is used in many com-block rifle ball-ammo) are legal consider AP pistol rounds and are heavily regulated in the US.
 
The other one that springs to mind was some old Sellier and Bellot ammunition I saw many moons ago.
It was a 7.62x25mm cartridge loaded with a bullet with these features:

1) heeled steel insert
2) lead core surrounding the heel of the insert
3) tombak-plated steel jacket

Tombak is a copper-zinc alloy. On external inspection, you wouldn't know that was a steel jacket.
A magnet test will reveal it, with the caveat being it could still be a cupro-nickel jacket with a steel insert in the core.
 
Why would anyone shoot eastern block ammo if they're concerned about their barrels?

If the eastern bloc ammo mfg says the bullets are steel cased then I would assume it's some type of metal that's harder than brass (copper and zinc) and move on.
 
If you get the com block ammo cheap enough you can afford to replace barrels at the slightly decreased interval. But in reality very few people shoot enough to wear out a pistol barrel. And if you do shoot that much the price of the barrel is small compared to the price of the ammo to wear it out even shooting bimetal jackets
 
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Almost all steel cased rounds have steel jacketed bullets.

There are exceptions, but they are notable and unusual.

There's not a lot of steel core ammo available to American shooters since it tends to be incorrectly classified as armor piercing. But that's neither here nor there.

I wouldn't be surprised if steel cases and steel jackets accelerate wear, but it's awfully difficult to wear out a pistol barrel. Much as in the Lucky Gunner torture test, it's still likely so much cheaper that it's worthwhile even including the cost of replacement parts.
 
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To my knowledge there is ZERO steel core handgun ammo currently for sale in the US. The "cop killers" thing in the 80s and 90s got it all banned. Some rifle bullets have steel cores or other "penetrators". Lots of M80 ball has magnetic jackets including all US made M80 I've ever seen. Almost all foreign made 7.62x39 has steel jackets. Yugo doesn't but it is the exception.

Some handgun bullets are magnetic jackets over lead cores. I haven't seen any problems but I don't shoot steel CASED ammo in handguns myself.

Not sure what the point of this thread is.
 
A steel cased shell would be for a shotgun or an artillery piece; Irony is complaining about incorrect terminology with incorrect terminology.

as in the shells which hold the primers and gun powder.

The correct terminology would be case, or more correctly cartridge case.

BTW, Silver Bear makes steel cased shells for shotgun, if anyone is interested.
 
"Almost all steel cased rounds have steel jacketed bullets."

Is that true? Is it true of the Russian 9mm ammo? What is your source for this?

Remember that the OP asked about handgun ammo here.
 
Wolf lists bi-metal jacket for all their steel cased pistol ammo:

http://wolfammo.com/steel-casing.aspx

It's less clear with Tula but I believe all the Tula 9mm is a zinc plated steel bimetal jacketed bullet.

Brown/Silver/Golden Bear 9mm is also all bimetal jacketed bullets.
 
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I stopped using the steel cased ammo over a decade ago in my pistols though used it as I saw it in my revolvers. This was still when Tula applied a lacquer to all it's 9 mm and 45 acp cases to seal out moisture. Once hot the lacquer had a tendency to gum up in the chamber and leave flakes of it there. This caused issues with extraction in my Colt's. Two extractors broke. In the interests of honesty both extractors had been pulling brass cases from the chamber for decades.

I think though that they no longer use that lacquer. Steel cases do not expand and contract as readily as brass does. But I don't see it wearing out chambers any sooner.I don't see a reason for that to occur. I don't think the material of the case would effect the barrel at all or accelerate wear on the gun.

The steel for the steel jacketed bullets is, as noted by mcb and others, alloyed with other materials and softer than the steel of the barrels. Though not as soft as lead. As Kozak6 said above it takes alot of shooting to wear out a pistol barrel.

I also think that there are a number of factors that effect barrel life and that the material of the bullet jacket, even steel jacketed, may not be the most important factor in that.

I think the best place to determine if steel jacketed bullets accelerate wear will be with ARs and AKs.

I think that, like most things to do with guns, go get a bunch of ammo and go shooting. See and determine for yourself. Stop worrying about abstract stuff and shoot.
 
entropy: True. Upon the advice of my council, the plea is changed to guilty as charged.
tipoc: Roger that.

My apology that nomenclature was not accurate, or confusing, and the word sequence could have been better.

As for steel-core bullets, thanks to you guys for the reminder that these are not legal.

kozak6: Thanks for mentioning the "Lucky Gunner Torture Test" using brass-cased .223 in one of the two ARs, compared with using only bimetal-jacketed bullets in the other.
They found that the bimetal coatings caused accel. "bullet wear" in the specific gun's bore, after about 6,000 rds.? But the savings with 'steel ammo' would pay for a new barrel with money left over.

At least our 9mm handguns involve far less energy in the bores.
 
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Couple points after skimming...

Afaik, no steel core projectiles or ammunition is legal to own in the US that's larger than 5.56. The green tip 5.56 is the only steel core/tip I've seen sold here.

Wolf used to produce their lacquer coated steel case 7.62x39 with a bi-metal jacket that was copper in color. Copper and zinc are the both very soft and wont damage a barrel like a steel jacket projectile would. The harder the jacket, the faster the barrel will wear. Plain as that.
 
At a Federal level AP and/or steel core rifle bullets or ammo is perfectly legal for civilians in the US to buy, possess, and use. AP, tracer, incendiary or any combination of, is legal. It is only handgun ammo that has bullet construction restrictions and there are specific definitions of what constitutes an illegal pistol bullet. State laws may further restrictions this.
 
While this is based on rifle bullets, some of the results will apply to pistol calibers.

From the earliest day of smokeless propellant, the problem of bore erosion and wear has been a constant head-ache to owners of large number of high use guns and very expensive guns, namely the military. So, not surprisingly, they did a lot, and I mean A LOT, of research into what causes bore erosion, and how to reduce it.

There are basically two causes of bore wear - 1) heat, the flame temperature of burning propellant is anywhere from 2500 to 3000 degrees K, depending on the actual propellant (for reference, the melting point of the steel used in the barrel is 1700 degrees K), and 2) mechanical rubbing between the bullet and the barrel. Of the two, the effects of heat are probably the most damaging.

Here are some results of some US Army erosion tests done with 7.62mm Ball, M80:

Test firing.............Propellant..................... .....Jacket......No. of Rounds to.......Cause for
No...............................Type............. .....................Material....Disqualification. .......Disqualification

1..................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GM..............14,500.......... ...........V (1)
2.................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GMCS..........8,450............. ........K (2)
3................................IMR 8138M Lot 2.................GMCS........10,150.............. ........K
4................................IMR 8138M Lot 48..............GM................8,000........... ...........V
5................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GM................7,500.......... ............V
6................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GMCS..........7,850.............. ........K
7................................IMR 8138M Lot 48...............GMCS.........11,800.............. ........K
8................................WC 846 Lot AL44133..........GM..............17,300........... ...........V
9................................WC 846 Lot AL44133..........GMCS.........18,325.............. ........K

1) Velocity loss of more than 200 fps

2) Keyholing, defined as 20% or more bullets exceeding 15% yaw at 1000 inches (appox 25 meters)

The significant conclusions drawn from these results in the report this table was attached to were as follows:

1. Bullet jacket material (GM versus GMCS) does not appear to have a significant effect on barrel life. However, the GM jacketed lots all went out on velocity loss while the GMCS lots all went out on keyholing indicating that the mechanism of barrel failure was probably different.

2. WC 846 propellant is less erosive than IMR 8138M propellant.

One may note that test firings #2 and #6 differ greatly from #3 and #7, which is very puzzling as the components used were the same, and the propellant lots were the same. Also, the question of why did 8138M Lot #2 perform notably better that 8138 Lot #48, came up. In the report, the difference was written off to variations in the test barrels.

Partially in an attempt to explain the above, and also to test the usefulness of wear reducing additives, a second test was run, with stricter controls on barrel selection and more careful monitoring of various barrel parameters.

In this test several T65E1 machine guns (M1919A4s converted to 7.62mm) with chrome plated barrels were utilized. A 25 round belt was shot every 12 seconds until 500 rounds were expended. Then the barrel was allowed a 4 minute cool down period before the next 500 rounds were fired, again in 25 round increments. Bullet velocities and bullet yaw were continuously measured. Every 5000 rounds, the barrel was cooled to ambient, cleaned, measured, and samples of residue and bore fouling taken for analysis. The measuring consisted of measuring the diameter of the lands and grooves at 1 inch intervals were measured. Then the process was repeated until another 5000 rounds was shot, or the barrel failed due to keyholing or velocity loss.

The findings from the tests described in this report are summarized in the table below.

Summary of Results
.................................................. .................................................. ..................Adiabatic
.................................................. .................................................. ..................Isochoric
.................................................. .................................................. ..................AverageFlame.......No. of
Cartridge...........Bullet........................ ..........................CaC03...Mo03..........Te mp..............Rounds to
Lot No.................Design..................Propell ant..............(%)........(%)..............(K).. .................Disqual.

LC-SP-1368.......GMCS (1)..........Ball WC 846...........0.15............0.............2884.. ................10,417
LC 12923............GM (2)..............Ball WC 846............0.58...........0............2790... ...............18,042
FA-42-73...........GMCS.................Ball WC 846...........0.47...........0............2831.... ..............13,342
FA-2115..............GMCS.................Double Base............0..............1.05.........2889.. .................8,625
.................................................. ............Extruded
.................................................. ............Propellant
FA-2016..............GMCS.................Double Base............0................0.............291 2...................6,333
.................................................. ............Extruded
.................................................. ............Propellant

_______________________
1) Gilding Metal Clad Steel jacket (aka, bi-metal), the total jacket thickness is .021" with an outer gliding metal cladding averaging .003" thick. The core is a lead-antimony alloy with 2% antimony, softer that the GM bullet design. (Note: this is about the same cladding thickness as used by Wolf, Brown Bear and Tula.)

2) Gilding Metal Jacket, the total thickness of the jacket is .026". The core is a lead-antimony alloy with 10% antimony.

Note: All GM jackets bullets came from the same production lot, as did all GMCS jacket bullets.

Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is an additive used to neutralize acid during the production of ball propellant. It has also been shown to reduce barrel wear, unfortunately, it also leads to increased fouling. WC846 made after 1969 was made with reduced CaCO3 content (less than .25%) in order to be used in the M16 without fouling the gas tube. At some point, WC864 with extremely low CaCO3 content was split-off as WC844, and WC846 with increased CaCO3 content was introduced as WC864+CaCO3 for use in 7.62mm, Ball, M80 specifically to increase barrel life.

You will note from the above table, and the before it, that there is a better correlation between flame temperatures and wear than jacket material and wear, especially if you know that 8138M has a flame temperature of 2770 to 2820 degrees K. GMCS jacketed bullet are only slightly harder on the barrel than GM jacketed bullets, but the choice of propellant can easily make up for the difference.

In the second test, measuring of the bore diameters did reveal something interesting. When a bore wears, enlarging of the throat tends to lead to velocity loss, as gas escapes around the bullet rather than pushing it down the barrel. Conversely, wear at the muzzle tends to lead to keyholing as the rifling loses its grip on the projectile before maximum velocity and maximum RPM are reached, therefore the bullet leaves the barrel with less spin than required to stabilize it

The measuring of the tested barrels showed the GMCS Jacketed bullets seem to open up the muzzle more than GM jacketed bullets, which would explain why GMCS jacketed bullets tended to keyhole. Not only did the land diameter increase, the groove diameter showed a similar enlargement. Possibly indicating a gas erosion phenomenon as the bullet nears the muzzle?

In all cases, the addition of calcium carbonate in the propellant drastically reduced the progression of throat erosion. Molybdeum trioxide did reduce throat erosion, but the fouling residue was so bad it made continued firing of the gun difficult (It formed in the recoil booster and prevented the barrel from sliding freely).

These are just two Army published reports that show that flame temperature of the propellant has a very large impact on barrel life. In fact, as a result of their years of study, the US Navy has adopted the simple solution to barrel erosion is simply reducing the flame temperature of the propellant and live with the reduced performance. This is the thinking that brought forth NACO (NAvy COol) propellant, and reduced muzzle velocity, and subsequently range.

(It is interesting to note that ball propellant, even though it is a double base propellant, burns cooler than 8138M, which is a single base propellant.)

The result shown in the Lucky Gunner test, are almost the exact same results as the results shown in the above two Army tests, namely, the relatively cool ball propellant used in M193 (WC 844, the same stuff as WC846 but with less CaCO3) will wear out a barrel in 13,000 to 15,000 rounds, and the reason for rejection will be velocity loss (if you look at the velocity chart for the copper jacketed bullets, the velocity loss will be more than 200 fps in about that time). We can only assume what powder Wolf, et al. are using, but it would seem from the results to be a relatively hot extruded propellant (double or single based) which has shown to wear out a barrel in about half the time as WC846/WC844, and the reason for rejection of the barrels is keyholing.
 
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