Why choose the 230 grain bullet in 45 ACP?

[hinton03]

Just finished reading the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" and it makes me wonder why most 45 ACP shooters preach the 230 grain JHP for defense.

Considering that the FBI study concludes:

1. Penetration and permanent wound cavity size are the only two factors that should be considered in caliber selection.

2. Knockdown power is a myth in that even at muzzle velocity the force of bullet impact is as if a 10 pound weight was dropped from under 2 inches.

3. Bullet fragmentation does not occur at handgun velocities.

If we assume that bullet construction and design are adequate for the velocity, both bullets expand as designed and both are capable of penetrating at least 12 inches, why wouldn't the light 45 ACP bullets, say 185 grain, be superior. It would seem that the lighter bullet, with is lower felt recoil, would be more desirable.

 

[Okiecruffler]

You've answered your own question with #1 above. I like the 185's myself, but the 230 goes deep.

 

[McCall911]

I've always had a bias in favor of the 230 grain bullet for the .45 ACP, but I realize that not all .45 ACP bullets are created equal. Even though a 185 grain bullet is "supposed" to penetrate less, some actually penetrate and expand better. Go figure!



http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

 

[JohnBT]

"lower felt recoil"

I find the 230's to be quite tame actually in a 5-inch gun.

And the fixed sights on my guns seem to be regulated for 230's.

Other than that, I'm just sort of a big and slow kind of guy.

John

 

[1911 guy]

Ditto what JohnBT said. Handguns are relatively low velocity, so why give up bullet weight?

 

[ldp4570]

I choose 230gr for my 1911A1, SW 4566, SW 4516-2, SW WWI 1917, just as I choose 158gr +P SWC or SWCHP in all my .38spl SW revolvers. Both have been getting the job done, and will continue to march on till we have phazers!

 

[moxie]

I like the 230 for barrels 4" or longer, and the 185 for barrels less than 4".

 

[Vern Humphrey]

One of the problems with wounding studies is that they ignore the tactical aspects.

I remember taking to Colonel Marvin Fackler once, and he said "Most men are killed by full-automatic fire."

I asked him if he recovered the bullets and compared them forensically? And if he did, what tests did he perform to determine the position of the selector switch when the man was shot?

The point? Autopsys concentrate only on the medical aspects, not on the tactical.

 

[M1911]

There just isn't much felt recoil from 230 gr in a government model and 230 gr is likely to penetrate more than 185 gr.

That said, both are handgun rounds and as such are underpowered. But the difference between the two is not that important. Shot placement is critical -- any other variable is simply noise.

 

[hinton03]

Vern, Not sure what you mean by the tactical aspect. What difference would bullet weight make in the sense of tactical approach?

 

[moxie]

I like the 230 for barrels 4" or longer, and the 185 for barrels less than 4".

 

[Claude Clay]

+1 moxie

if we can agree that control of 230 ball in a full size 1911 is tame,
in a commander is mild; a LW commander borders on unruly,
in a defender it is wild.
now, use a 185 in the defender and you get unruly; the LW commander becomes mild. one may debate the stopping power of the 185, but the perceived recoil makes lighter guns more manageable for many. proper training and technique can render the ammo choice moot

the full size 1911 is synergistic. it was, pure and simple, born right. any change to it, bbl length , gun weight, bullet weight--becomes a trade off. a trade at a new level, one below the original design yet desirable under specific conditions (easier to conceal).

tactical re bullet weight (assuming you can hit what your aiming at) goes to penetration and second shot capability (speed and accuracy).
tactical as i think of it is more a factor of the shooters training and ability than the weight of the bullet.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, Not sure what you mean by the tactical aspect. What difference would bullet weight make in the sense of tactical approach?

Questions I would like to see answered include things like:

How many shots were fired before there was a hit? Some guns are more "shootable" than others.

What did the deceased do after being hit? In the Miami Shootout, they guy who did all the killing did it after being mortally wounded.

What barriers did the bullet pass through? In my experience, people tend to hide behind things under fire.

How many people were shooting? Going back to my discussion with Fackler, I personally know of many cases where a man was shot by several different shooters.

What was the range?

How long did the fight last?

And on and on and on.

 

[Cannonball888]

I like the 230 for barrels 4" or longer, and the 185 for barrels less than 4".

+1

 

[BlindJustice]

Seems few gun shops stock 200 gr. loads - a bit more weight than the 185 gr. - I like the 200 gr. Hornady XTP JHP loaded to the
975 fps velocity range. Full size 1911 or my 625 5" Bbl.

 

[hinton03]

Vern,

The question revolves around all things being equal. If all is equal in the situation why is one bullet weight better or worse?

Back to the wounding study; it states that there is no way to compare individual shootings because of many of the things you described one a few you didn't. Therefore, if the bullets are the same diameter, creating the same sized permanent wound cavity and penetrating enough to reach the vitals (the study recommends a minimum of 12 inches) the bullet weight is not a factor in terminal performance.

Some others have pointed out the affinity the 1911 has for the 230 grain bullet weight and believe that this particular pistol functions more reliably with the 230 grain bullet. As a 1911 shooter that is probably enough for me to choose the 230 grain bullet over the 185, but that has nothing to due with the performance of the bullet down range.

 

[hinton03]

Blind Justice,

I noticed that a lot of LE agencies were using the 200 grain CCI Lawman a few years ago. Do you know is they are they moving to the XTP?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The question revolves around all things being equal. If all is equal in the situation why is one bullet weight better or worse?

The problem is, we don't know if all things are equal. And an autopsy won't tell us.

 

[SoonerSP101]

I know bullet fragmentation does not occur at handgun velocities.
But expansion does occur and this takes a higher velocity. Heavier reduces the chance of expansion because of the reduced velocity at the same diameter.

The high bullet speed when stopped rapidly does increase the understood term of "knock down power".

Penetration for self-defense should stop the bullet just under the skin on the oposite side and not exit. This is to gain the most transfer of energy, translated as "knock down power"

Penetration and control of it by bullet speed, diameter of bullet (expansion if inital caliber is consistent) and bullet weight to comply with above statement as efficiently as possible.

In all my research over the years I have really only got one item I can't control and that is the size / thickness of target.

Two bullets that are the best to meet my requirements and are essentially the same in performance I require in a .45 ACP: 200 grain lead semi-wadcutter and 185 grain jacketed hollow point.

 

[Conqueror]

It would seem that the lighter bullet, with is lower felt recoil

Who said lighter bullets have less felt recoil? This is not the case. Kinetic energy increases proportionally to the mass and the SQUARE of the velocity. When you drop from 230gr to, say, 185gr, you lose mass and therefore some KE. But you gain velocity and you SQUARE that term - it usually delivers more kinetic energy, and therefore MORE felt recoil.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I'll keep it simple...in a 3 inch gun 185's MAY have a place.
I don't understand why there are not more 200 grain slugs available...they are as light as a 45 acp was meant to fire...(the 185's are bigger around than they are long...not good)

230's are all I shoot, carry, or load...but then 1911's with barrels of less than 4.25 inches don't exist in my world.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Who said lighter bullets have less felt recoil? This is not the case. Kinetic energy increases proportionally to the mass and the SQUARE of the velocity.

But recoil is expressed in momentum, not kinetic energy. Momentum increases linearly, while kinetic increases with the square of the velocity.

It is therefore possible to get less recoil and more kinetic energy by going to a lighter, faster bullet.

 

[rcmodel]

This is to gain the most transfer of energy, translated as "knock down power"

There is no such thing as knock-down power in a handgun.

If you don't believe it, hang a 100 pound sack of sand in a tree with a rope and shoot it.

You will note that the 300 or 400 lb/ft of bullet energy barely wiggled the sack of sand, let alone "knock" it anywhere.

rcmodel

 

[MICHAEL T]

I have went 185 DPX in all my 1911's over 15" in jell and excellent expansion

 

[mainmech48]

Might be because I'm a geezer-in-training but I'm still very much biased towards mass and diameter when it comes to handgun rounds.

Some of it might come from sheer inertia and a bit of pragmatism, at least where my CCW .45s are concerned. The fixed sights on all of them are regulated for POI and POA to closely coincide with 230 gr. loads at conventional 'standard' velocity.

Rather than mess with changing the sights, I use the ammo that works with what I've got.

The only .45s I have where recoil with 230 gr. loads is any issue for me at all are my OM-sized Para C7.45 LDA and the miniscule AMT DAO Backup. Both are a bit easier for me to shoot well quickly with using 165-185 gr. loads.