Why did .45 Colt go into decline?

[Jim March]

Wil, I realize the black powder SAAs were mostly 45LC, but that includes the military contract guns. I've heard before that in civilian sales (at least direct from Colt as opposed to milsurp into civilian hands), the 44-40 exceeded 45LC sales and the 38-40 came ballpark close.

 

[Blacksmoke]

This may have already been covered. If so, accept my appologies for not reading each and every post. The .45 Colt just fell out of favor. There is a tendency towards fads in firearms. In the 1960s and 1970s the .357 magnum was the hot item for self defense. Then came the .41 magnum. Big and slow was out, high velocity expanding bullets were in; e.g. the 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow point was what every gun hand shot. Even 1911s were considered somewhat passe', hard to shoot accurately and too much of Beetle Bailey. I remember articles in the gun press in the early 1970s arguing that what law enforcement needed was a return to the good old 1911 .45 ACP carried "Cocked and Locked". What a firestorm of controversy that created!

The same happened with 9mm autos in the 1980s. Everybody had to have one. Police departments from NYC to LAPD tossed their S&W six guns and strapped on the Niner. Then, after the North Hollywood B of A shootout with the armor plated bad guys, everybody dumped their nines in favor of .40 and .45 ACP.

So, there is a herd effect with gun writers and gun store salesmen. Someone decided that the old Long Colt had potential and it became the in cartridge again. Just watch, in a few years shooting magazine will rediscover the beauty of a medium weight medium caliber high velocity bullet fired from a reliable and elegant Colt Python or Trooper.

 

[CavScout87]

.45 Colt

Id just like to add that Colt is making Single Action Armys again and calling them their 4th Gens. Id also like to add one reason .45 LC is making a comeback, and that is how popular Cowboy Action shooting has become over the past decade. I recently bought a 2nd Gen SAA brand spanking new in the box in .45 LC and I absolutely love shooting it. Now we just need to find a way to lower the price of .45 LC seeing as how its $30 a box now.... ouch....

 

[Ash]

The 57 Chevy is quite a popular car these days but it actually was less popular when new, selling fewer than the 1956 or 1958 Chevy.

I cannot say about the popularity of the 45lc in the latter portions of the 1800's and early 1900's among civilians (as opposed to police forces). But the most popular Chevy from the 1950's was at that time less successful than its predecessor or successor. Our perceptions today would seem to indicate otherwise.

Can this also be the case of the late 1880's? I don't know, personally. Of course, I do have an interesting Trocoala top break in 44 Special. It was a commercial version of the Revolver, Old Pattern, in 455 Webley. I can only imagine that European revolvers were almost never issued in 45Colt. (Of course, 455 Webley is also 455 Colt).

But, I ramble and the baby needs a diaper...

Ash

 

[gus3836]

The military did not use lever action 45-70's they used the the trap door design springfield single shots. The 45-70 lever guns and 1876 lever guns were hunting guns not fighting guns. Gus

 

[Timthinker]

Patrick Henry, the advent of cowboy shooting events certainly contributed to the resurgence of both the .45 Colt cartridge and single action revolvers in recent years. The Ruger Vaquero and other Colt clones are undeniable testimony for this occurence. Indeed, I am not surprised that Ruger offers a double-action revolver for this cartridge given its "rediscovery". But I doubt the .45 Colt will gain great popularity as a home defense gun due to stiff competition from other revolver calibers and competition from semi-auto handguns.

In terms of fads which Blacksmoke mentioned, I point to the .357 SIG. It seeks to combine the power and penetration of the .357 Magnum with the popularity of a semi-auto package. This is why it exists. All successful handgun cartridges have existed because they filled a perceived niche in the marketplace. Blacksmoke's observation is one that transcends this particular discussion and serves as "food for thought". I believe we should keep his observation in mind when thinking about the course of a particularly popular cartridge.


Timthinker

 

[Patrick Henry]

Wow there were a lot more responses than I expected. I think Ash's point about the mentality toward the role of Police in society is probably right, at least in the "civilized" East.

Personally I never fired a gun in .45 Colt, just looked at the cartridges in the store. I never realized the problem with the small case rim. The issue of the big, empty case when using smokeless powder I would think common to all revolver cartridges. The revolver is an antiquated platform (which is not to say, obsolete). It was designed to fire black power cartridges and that is the only reason revolver cartridges are as long as they are -- even modern cartridges, because they were developed from older ones.

If I take a .38 special (even +P) and turn it over in my hand, I can actually hear the powder rolling around in there. If I shake one next to my ear it sounds like the case is mostly empty. I have never loaded my own ammo, but it makes sense.

The point about .45 revolvers being "big and heavy" for everyday carry I think is correct -- that's why I specified "medium frame" (without giving much aforethought to whether that's realistically possible). Heh.

P.S. -- Oh yeah, BlindJustice's point about S&W having to stamp "COLT" on their revolvers made me laugh...never thought of it.

 

[Patrick Henry]

Police Power

Today, we would feel the same way if all cops decided to carry subguns slung over their shoulders. It happens in Europe but the US Citizen would have a cow if all the guards at the airports, if all state troopers, and if all sheriffs approached them with an Uzi or MP-5 hanging off their shoulder.

While I like that traditional American attitude toward police power, with the brainless, gutless, pacified sheep-like boobs that populate our nation today, I'm not so sure people would object. I think as long as it was somebody wearing a uniform, many sheeple today would be at ease seeing somebody carrying a machine gun. The 2nd Amendment exists not to protect something as trivial as hunting rights but to protect the people from the state, from army and police power. Yeah....So much for that concept.

I remember the first time I came to Europe I was rather surprised to see many of the Italian police armed with submachine guns (though I was not, like many of my companions, freaked out). A few months ago I was in Switzerland and there was a Swiss cop walking around Zurich airport with an MP5 -- first time I had seen one in person actually.

Of course, Europe has much less violent crime than the USA, so what gives? The answer is that while police in the US are (in theory) servants of the community, police elsewhere in the world, while protecting the community, are fundamentally instruments of state power and are armed accordingly.

This was off topic, but I guess since I'm the OP it's my prerogative

 

[tipoc]

Just a couple of points.

The .45 Colt pistol is just as formidable as it always was - and - at about 40yds. or less - that is plenty formidable. But of course we have several generations of gunners who scoff at a "mere" 40yds.

Until the last coupla decades the .357 and the .44 Mag were flatter shooting cartridges than the .45 Colt beyond 50 yards. But The 45 Colt was always effective out to as far as a fella could shoot it. It's curved trajectory and that guns were not available to take advantage of it's full capabilities limited it's role as a hunting round compared to the .357 and the .44. With improvements in gun design By Freedom Arms and Ruger the 45 Colt is more than adequate and accurate out to 100 yards and beyond. It compares favorable to the .44 Magnum in performance.

The .45 Colt never "fell out of popularity". For 135 years not a year has gone by where guns for this caliber have not been produced (excepting during WWII). The major manufacturers of ammo never ceased loading and selling ammo for the .45 Colt. Compare this to other rounds like the 44/40, the 32/20, the 38/40, etc. which were popular 100 years ago and fell out of use (except by handloaders) only to be revived by Cowboy Action Shooting.

A gun in .45 Colt on your hip weighs less than a similar sized gun in .357 or .44. Less metal in the cylinders and the barrel.

The point being that the .45 Colt has never gone out of popularity. It simply has not been the cartridge of law enforcement or the military for a century. The calibers that have been law enforcement or military have done better. They always do.

tipoc

 

[TherealMordis]

I was reading a Couple reviews about some SAA's and they were using Goex Black Dawge cartridges. THe goex black dawge .38special 145gr hbfp was moving out of the 5.5 inch barrel at 1660+ fps, and the goex black dawge .45colt 235grain RNFP was averaging over 1250+fps out of a 5.5'" barrel.

From what i gather these bullets are standard pressure rounds, not plus P. If these loads are inline with what was available back in those days, then im impressed. Bullets might make more smoke, and require more cleaning, but that does not make them weaker lol.

What i find strange, is the .38spc round. Its leaving the barrel at 1600+FPS with a 145 GR bullet, thats .357 mag territory. I dont know how everyone else thinks, but if thats the case, i think the .38 might be a more effective round(if used witha JHP in the same weight, over the same powder) then the current smokless offerings.

 

[.41Dave]

THe goex black dawge .38special 145gr hbfp was moving out of the 5.5 inch barrel at 1660+ fps, and the goex black dawge .45colt 235grain RNFP was averaging over 1250+fps out of a 5.5'" barrel.

Those velocities sound way out of line for black powder loads. According to this website, http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/ballistics.html , the Black Dawge .38 load has a velocity of about 745 fps from a 5.5" barrel and the .45 Colt load runs 845 fps from a 5.5" barrel. The .45 will do around 1200 fps, but from a 24" barrel, not a 5.5"

 

[TherealMordis]

Dave, i know the velocities published threw me off as well. But thats what they listed for them out of 5.5 inch barrels. Im sure it has to be some form of horrid typo. I mean, *** .38s doing .357mag speeds and .45colts approaching 44mag.

The article was about Doc holliday in one of the old west gun magazines. I cant remember off hand, im not at home right now.

 

[V45C]

don't know how i missed this thread .
the only cartridge i load for is 45 colt , with the modern powders and bullets it does everything i need a cartridge to do for my uses.
i've tried all the others and keep coming back.
if i can't do it with some variation of 45 colt then i have to ask myself if what i'm trying to do is feasible...
i'm waiting on redhawk 4" as i type this...

 

[tipoc]

It's over a year old is how ya missed it.

tipoc

 

[Meeteetse]

I find it interesting that some feel interest in the .45 Colt has declined. As someone stated earlier, production of ammo and guns has never ceased since its introduction and continues today. I have in my collection three single actions and three double actions. The largest is a Redhawk followed by a 6" barreled S&W Mdl. 25 and a 7 1/2" Ruger BH. Additionally I have a Ruger Sheriff's model Vaquero (original model) with a 3 1/2" barrel, a 4 5/8" Blackhawk and a S&W 625 Mtn Gun. Many of these guns are still in production. The S&W Mtn Gun is lighter than most similarly sized .357's.

I suggest that the .45 Colt is and was the caliber of choice when pure power was wanted prior to the advent of the magnums. Even today, most would be served well with a heavy loaded .45 at much lower pressures than the .44 mag with nearly equal terminal ballistics. The popularity of the military calibers always influences people's opinion, especially toward smaller, faster ballistics. that does not mean the terminal effects are better.

The .45 Colt and the .44 Special seem to be in a category unto themselves. Love them or hate them, but they will always be around. The .45 Colt is very popular. I also wish companies would build more double action guns, but the fact that they still produce what they do is testimony to the popularity of the .45 Colt. By the way, all my single actions also shoot .45acp. What could be better than that.

 

[nelson133]

Another way to get a 45LC revolver is to find a "shooter" grade New Service. As ststed above, that was the most common caliber it was chambered in. A reblued or worn finish gun should be less than $500 and these things are very well built revolvers. Mine is a 5/&1/2 inch model that has been reblued, manufactured in 1916 and still carrying the original stag grips. The action is very tight and it is as accurate as my eyes can be with the old fashioned front sight. I don't know that I would ever try to make a magnum out of it, but it is quite a bit stronger than the SSA.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My New Service was made in 1906. It had a front sight about as thick as a razor blade, and a rear notch to match. It shot 18 inches high and a foot to the left when I got it. It had also been reblued until all the markings were almost invisible.

So I felt justified in cutting off the old front sight and soldering on a big, honking flat-topped blade. Once I got the elevaton right, I opened up the rear notch, shading it to the right until it shoots dead on at 25 yards.

 

[Stainz]

My 625 MGs in .45 Colt were a lot of fun to shoot - for years. They declined in use here, not because of ammo - I have a couple thousand rounds made up - but simply due to the black on black sights! My recent buys, a 625JM and a 627 Pro, have spring loaded front sights - and w/o rear blades. A HiViz front - changed w/o tools in seconds - made all the difference. Sure, I can pin another HiViz front - change the rear blade - but I haven't.

How is that for a lame reason to all but stop shooting .45 Colts? And... after many SA Rugers - and both a .454 SRH and .45 RH - all gone now - I arrived at the MGs as my preferred .45 Colt handgun! The sights, though... yuck! I even replaced my 'lost' 629MG with a regular 4" 629 - RR & w/o - yippee!

Stainz

 

[Dimis]

im obsessed with the .45colt i dream of a pair of ruger redhawks
with a Taurus 450 as a backup
all with a nice lever action rifle in .45colt

 

[Stainz]

Dimis,

Look back on the first page of replies - my post (#17). That's what you want - a Puma M1892 in and the S&W 625MG in .45 Colt - nothing better. Okay, I lied... the 625-6 from '01 has an older sibling here - a '96 version (625-6) - two MGs in .45 Colt beats one!

Stainz