ClickClickD'oh
Member
mkc451 said:
I know a guy who played catch once with a .357. He didn't even know he had taken the hit until after the fight when the adrenaline shakes wore off.
Why do people keep falling for this sort of garbage?
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I know a guy who played catch once with a .357. He didn't even know he had taken the hit until after the fight when the adrenaline shakes wore off.
What kind of bullet? Where did he get hit? Was it just a scratch? etc. I can't evaluate your comment with no specific information. It is like someone saying they got a 1" group. What distance? How many shots?
There were stories from WWII and elsewhere that were similar and they were often from high power rifle rounds. Nothing is guaranteed in this stuff even with rifles.
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I guess I assumed Federal was updating the Hydra Shok bullet design and still calling it the same name. It isn't what I normally buy as it is often more expensive.
So where is a good place to go to see reliable comparisons between all the name brand hollow point rounds? Normally when I have seen them, the comparison is limited and leaves out major manufacturers.
So where is a good place to go to see reliable comparisons between all the name brand hollow point rounds? Normally when I have seen them, the comparison is limited and leaves out major manufacturers.
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chopinbloc
Member
This is pretty much the definitive list: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
newfalguy101
Member
Partially marketing and partially procuring R&D funds
R&D is pricey and I would expect that there are more "Failures" than winners that come out of all that research, however, when they hit on something that "works", well then, now its time to: OVER promote it, sell the heck out of it and add a few hundred thousand bucks to the checkbook to pay for MORE research, to find/produce something better.
R&D is pricey and I would expect that there are more "Failures" than winners that come out of all that research, however, when they hit on something that "works", well then, now its time to: OVER promote it, sell the heck out of it and add a few hundred thousand bucks to the checkbook to pay for MORE research, to find/produce something better.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
MechAg94 said:
Don't know. Didn't take time to take a look.
MechAg94 said:
His vest caught it, front side, lower left
MechAg94 said:
Looked like a welt you get from paintballs.
Various gun forums, YouTube, and to a certain extent some manufacturers websites.
I can save you time and tell you that Federal HST will suffice, get some of it in you cartridge(s) and hit the range.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
blarby
Member
That lucky gunner test is about the best you are going to get outside the FBI.
PERFECT ? no.
Really good?
Very much yes.
PERFECT ? no.
Really good?
Very much yes.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Was that a reflexive question? LOL. There have already been a goodly amount of reviews and Youtube tests with the same sorts of results.
Why do folks fall for this? Because it blasts through IIIa body armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6h44Pu4sM&nohtml5=False
RecoilRob
Member
They used to say that you'll encounter one of three types of badguys: The first will stop when you produce the gun...ANY gun so caliber doesn't matter. The second is more hard core and will keep going until you shoot...and hit..him. The third is the one you really don't want to go up against because he'll keep going until you physically shut him down. A real hard core 1%'er.
The 'gimmick' rounds would actually work better than many on the #2 type guys as they would impact harder and louder and someone who might not notice a hit with some other type of bullet would possibly notice that he'd been smacked with one of these....and decide to quit.
Of course, when encountering #3 guys you need that deepest penetration and good marksmanship to hit CNS or it's going to be a long day.
The 'gimmick' rounds would actually work better than many on the #2 type guys as they would impact harder and louder and someone who might not notice a hit with some other type of bullet would possibly notice that he'd been smacked with one of these....and decide to quit.
Of course, when encountering #3 guys you need that deepest penetration and good marksmanship to hit CNS or it's going to be a long day.
Deanimator
Member
The various victims of the NYPD did, during their 9x19mm FMJ days.
Unlike them, I don't have qualified immunity, a union willing to back me no matter what I do, or a bottomless pot of other people's money for settlements and judgments.
Onward Allusion
Member
The thing that you guys don't understand is that those who are knowledgeable in these matters represent a small minority of the population.
Those here may see through the hype, but joe blow down the street who goes owns one or two guns and shoots a couple of times a year will most likely not know the difference between hype and reality.
Those here may see through the hype, but joe blow down the street who goes owns one or two guns and shoots a couple of times a year will most likely not know the difference between hype and reality.
blarby
Member
Isn't that the truth.
We get quite a few requests for these "gimmicky bordering on fraudulent" ammo types in the store, so their marketing works more often than not.
We issued a long facebook post to that effect for the benefit of our patrons some time ago that pretty much nails it on the head, lemme dig it up....later, after coffee...
My biggest peeve on these ammo types is that one or two calibers might actually work( example: liberty 10mm) but become basically useless in others ( example : liberty 9mm) but they're all billed as the same magic snake oil.
The reality is that given perfect conditions, you can make almost any ammo look perfect.
Most defensive situations don't break out in simulated ballistic labs under these circumstances, and letting the less informed of us know the difference in those conditions is one of our duties as "the enlightened ones".
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Here's the post... edited for length.
We get quite a few requests for these "gimmicky bordering on fraudulent" ammo types in the store, so their marketing works more often than not.
We issued a long facebook post to that effect for the benefit of our patrons some time ago that pretty much nails it on the head, lemme dig it up....later, after coffee...
My biggest peeve on these ammo types is that one or two calibers might actually work( example: liberty 10mm) but become basically useless in others ( example : liberty 9mm) but they're all billed as the same magic snake oil.
The reality is that given perfect conditions, you can make almost any ammo look perfect.
Most defensive situations don't break out in simulated ballistic labs under these circumstances, and letting the less informed of us know the difference in those conditions is one of our duties as "the enlightened ones".
Edit :
Here's the post... edited for length.
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chopinbloc
Member
Well said.
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chopinbloc
Member
Disregard. Derp.
Neo-Luddite
Member
This is the same outfit that developed the M855a1 5.56 for the military and also makes a LE/MIL 9mm that goes through level 3a vests (and they won't sell poor civilians either:banghead. They have developed items to fill specific needs, real or perceived. Their Civil Defense line is interesting and of course is really a niche product from the start. Within the ridiculous restrictions of the pistol ammo laws in the US that limit metals used to mostly copper and lead I give them credit for trying something new. This isn't to say that I'll swap out the 124 gr XTP + p I carry in my 9mm for their offerings, but I am curious. Anecdotal reports suggest that their CD loadings will penetrate auto glass without deflection unlike most traditional defense loads. And also, it is said that some calibers will pop through car sheet metal and even some higher-level (up to 3a) body armor. Another consideration is that some caliber trajectories will suddenly become super flat: I'd imagine their offering in .45 acp could be used to make hits and ranges you'd never thought possible. I've also heard that perceived recoil is lighter than with standard ammo. I've never shot any of the stuff, but I have at least one very projectile-savy pal who is giving them a close look and that makes me take notice.
Results are results, but I wouldn't dismiss them altogether---they have obvious limitations but might fit a purpose you might have. Just my 2 cents worth.
. They have developed items to fill specific needs, real or perceived. Their Civil Defense line is interesting and of course is really a niche product from the start. Within the ridiculous restrictions of the pistol ammo laws in the US that limit metals used to mostly copper and lead I give them credit for trying something new. This isn't to say that I'll swap out the 124 gr XTP + p I carry in my 9mm for their offerings, but I am curious. Anecdotal reports suggest that their CD loadings will penetrate auto glass without deflection unlike most traditional defense loads. And also, it is said that some calibers will pop through car sheet metal and even some higher-level (up to 3a) body armor. Another consideration is that some caliber trajectories will suddenly become super flat: I'd imagine their offering in .45 acp could be used to make hits and ranges you'd never thought possible. I've also heard that perceived recoil is lighter than with standard ammo. I've never shot any of the stuff, but I have at least one very projectile-savy pal who is giving them a close look and that makes me take notice. Results are results, but I wouldn't dismiss them altogether---they have obvious limitations but might fit a purpose you might have. Just my 2 cents worth.
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chopinbloc
Member
To put a finer point on it, Liberty developed a three part 5.56mm projectile that the DoD later copied for the M855A1 and got their pants sued off for patent infringement.
NYPD Officers shot 9 bystanders in 2012 while going after the Empire State building shooter. I think that was as much a case of poor marksmanship as over penetration.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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chopinbloc
Member
Thank you.
Deanimator
Member
No need to compound poor marksmanship, judgment, training and supervision with avoidable risks to the public.
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chopinbloc
Member
Exactly. And that's why the FBI standards were developed. Pouring multiple, ineffective rounds into the target results in more rounds fired. Because police officers tend to miss more than they hit, there is a greater increase in missed rounds than in hits, further increasing the risk to bystanders.
buck460XVR
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I remember reading a study where back when LEOs used 5 shot .38s(supposedly another anemic sub-par SD round, using old technology bullets), they hit their intended target as many times then, as they do now, with their High Capacity(15 rounds) firearms, when emptying their gun. They stopped the attack just as often too. This tells me that shooting at an attacker multiple times, is not just because of ineffective rounds, but ineffective shooting, counting on more rounds to equate to a few hits.
TimSr
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So is that ridiculous cliche argument.
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