Why do shotgunners insist on point shooting?

[dave3006]

I went out skeet shooting. I got a 19/25 and 20/25. It would have been fun. Except for the insistence of the puller for me to keep both eyes open and focus on the target not the front sight.

I have heard this before. I currently keep both eyes opened when the clay bird is released. I start my barrel swing (both eyes are still open) and track the target with lead. The instant before I shoot, I close my left eye and fine tune my lead and barrel alignment with the bead at the end of my barrel. My barrel never stops moving and keeps moving after the shot.

It is almost a religious like zeal that these guys display towards their only acceptable method of shooting a shotgun. I am just not comfortable doing it their way and my results are decent.

Could there be more than one way to do it right?

 

[SShooterZ]

Tell him if you wanted his coaching, you would ask for it.

I will say that I "offer" advice occasionally to newer shooters who have some bad habits and who are not shooting well but I don't insist they do it my way.

I'm sorry you had an experience like that. If it was the puller, I would complain to the Club president about the issue and see what happens.

 

[Cosmoline]

Too many rich folks on the shotgun ranges. The clothes must be right, the guns must be right, the methods must be right and the people must be right.

So I stay on the rifle and pistol ranges

 

[P95loser]

just "slip and loose your footing" at let your swing cross his path


j/k

 

[Mulliga]

It is almost a religious like zeal that these guys display towards their only acceptable method of shooting a shotgun. I am just not comfortable doing it their way and my results are decent.

I think the puller in question was a jerk, but he is right - eyes should be on the target all the time. If you can get 24 and 25 consistently, I'd say do it your way, but 19 and 20 means you're missing a lot.

 

[TrapperReady]

Let's see. Your puller was trying to instruct (i.e. help) you. Your scores aren't bad, but you're still missing about 20% of the targets... and the advice he was offering was of a method used by the VAST majority (if not all) of people who shoot better.

You're always free to tell someone you don't want their advice. I did it myself during a sporting clays tournament this weekend. The gentleman I talked to had been trying to be helpful (and frankly, his advice was spot-on), and once I said something he remained silent while I was in the shooter's box.

As long as you're safe, you can shoot however you want. But let's not demonize folks who are trying to help.

Cosmoline - I shoot shotguns, rifles and pistols... although it's mostly shotguns. To tell the truth, the biggest jerks I've seen have been service rifle shooters... but guess what, it's still a very small number. In most any discipline, most people are great and there are a few folks whose attitudes I'm not able to accurately describe due to Art's Grammaw.

As shooter's it's in all of our best interests to work together and inaccurate generalizations don't help any of us.

 

[Oldnamvet]

I know a number of people who close one eye. They may be shooting right handed but they are left eye master. I guess if you were blind in the left eye, they wouldn't want you to shoot?
Too bad you can't come over to my club. The shotgunners here are only serious about safety. Otherwise, we just are there to have fun. Nobody keeps an official score but the first time someone shoots 25/25, we hang their hat on a pole and all shoot it. So no one comes out all decked out in LL Bean.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I am surprised by the notion that shotgunners insist on point shooting. I have never had anyone suggest or tell me that point shooting was the right way or only way to go.

Keeping both eyes open gives you the opportunity to see more than what is only at the end of your barrel field of view. This may be more critical for the middle stations (where leading is critical) than the end stations.

While not point shooting, I do know those that align their shotguns with their eyes such that where they look is where the shotgun is looking. Basically, the eyes stay pointed forward in a fixed position parallel to the gun. The head and eyes don't pivot, but the gun and vision pivots with the body and shoulders. The bead of the front sight is always part of the sight picture, but not the focus of the sight picture. The sight and barrel are simply used as an index in this broader field of view, indexing being quicker than actual sighting, but it isn't point shooting.

As noted, complaining might be a good idea if you found the puller to be annoying and offering help you apparently did not want. The puller is there to serve you. There is a reason why he is the puller and not the range's professional instructor.

 

[TrapperReady]

I don't know all of the details of "point shooting". However, you would be hard pressed to find a clay target instructor who wouldn't tell you to direct nearly all of your focus onto the target and not "aim" the shotgun.

When shooting, you lock your head down to the stock and keep everything indexed so that the gun moves where you are looking. In some respects, it's like your head becomes the rear "sight". The gun shoots where you are looking, so you want to make sure that you are looking where you want it to shoot (i.e. at the target).

I can say from my own experience that when I start paying attention to the front sight, my scores suffer. When I focus on the target, my scores improve.

I've got nothing against people finding out what works for them. Due to a cross-dominance problem, my wife closes one eye after she's acquired the target... but she still doesn't "aim".

 

[PJR]

Shoot the gun however you like. It's your gun, you paid for the targets and you may shoot them however you want. As for your results being decent don't delude yourself though. Your shooting 78 per cent and in competitive skeet shooting that is 7 points behind the cut-off for "E" Class and there's no lower category.

Unwelcome coaching on the clay field can be an annoyance. The best way to handle it is to ask the "coach" to leave you in peace to shoot your targets as you please.

There is more than one way to shoot a clay target. Sustained lead, spot shooting, swing through, pull away and collapsing lead. If you are going to shoot sporting clays well you'll need to understand all of them. Skeet is primarily a sustained lead game that requires attention to foot position, gun and eye hold. Two-eyes is better but not mandatory. I know a lot of good shooters who only use one eye.

 

[Gary G23]

I would NEVER offer advice to a safe shooter. I took up shotgunning about eight years ago to get a break from competitive pistol shooting. I shoot for fun and relaxation and don't want anybody spoiling that.

 

[c_yeager]

This is why i am no longer willing to help other men learn how to shoot. 90% of the guys i have taken to the range already "know everything" and wont respond favorably to any advice regardless of how much they need it. It is much easier just to let people continue screwing up than to actually try to help them.

 

[Gary G23]

"It is much easier just to let people continue screwing up than to actually try to help them."

As long as they are safe and having fun what is wrong with that?

 

[dave3006]

I question if their "point shooting" way is the only or best way. There were two guys that looked like regulars in my group that were using the "approved" method. I did better than both. I only do skeet 4-5 times per year.

If I were there every weekend using my method, who is to say my scores wouldn't be in the 20+ range.

 

[c_yeager]

As long as they are safe and having fun what is wrong with that?

What gave you the impression that i thought anything was wrong with this?

 

[Trebor]

1. I think his advice was spot on. I honestly don't think you'll get much better with your current technique, even if you shot more.

2. I've found that if I receive unwanted advice on the range, I usually thank the person for the info and then ask them to let me concentrate. I'll often say, "Thanks, I'll try that when I practice later, but I'd rather stick with what I'm used to right now." This usually works and there are no hard feelings.

3. I'm not much a shotgunner myself. I also still generally try to "aim" and dress up my sight picture. I'm pretty well convinced that that's why I miss so much and I'm seeking out good coaching on more traditional shotgun techniques for the few times I shoot clays or whatever.

 

[Dave McCracken]

First, I edited out a couple references to help keep this on The High Road.

Dave, your method is called blinking. Most instructors regard it as limiting, including me. With my dominance probs, I have worked to stop doing this for a couple years. Switching to two eyed shooting is well worth the time and trouble. Blinking may only cost you a target or two per round, but it will cost you.

I'll teach ANY rookie the basics at the range, regardless of race, creed or color if they want help. Gender can give me pause. A fair number of men are untrainable short of Parris Island techniques. Testosterone block.

For the record, I've trained hundreds of people to shoot. I'd much rather teach women.

 

[Trebor]

For the record, I've trained hundreds of people to shoot. I'd much rather teach women.

I agree. I've taught almost 100 people how to shoot (handguns, not shotguns) and, generally speaking, I'd rather teach a women then a guy.

The only exception being my wife. I'd rather have ANYONE else teach her then me.

To get back closer to the original topic: My wife received some shotgun lessons at a local "Woman's Day" event recently. The instructors all said the same thing: "Your stance is good, your form is good, your swing is good. I don't know why your missing..." Shotgunning is harder than it looks.

 

[Scoupe]

Oh heck, I'll pile on too.

The puller was out of line to offer unsolicited advice.

The puller's advice was generally good however. My coach, and many many old hands at skeet, can generally hit your score from the hip in true point fashion.

I thought I'd never be able to to keep both eyes open. Not the way I learned to shoot, confusing to see two beads, etc. etc. etc. But, once I learned to focus on the target, count the ridges, see which way it's spinning, watch it pop into focus... AND trust my mount, there's no way I could shoot skeet with one eye closed now.

BTW, just signed up for my first skeet league. Starts the 23rd. I'm pretty excited/nervous.

 

[PJR]

My wife received some shotgun lessons at a local "Woman's Day" event recently. The instructors all said the same thing: "Your stance is good, your form is good, your swing is good. I don't know why your missing..."

I would bet a significant amount that eye dominance is the cause of the misses. It is more common in women than men.

Due to a happy confluence of events earlier this year a friend and I were recruited to instruct a group of women at a sporting clays retreat earlier this year. Women are easier to teach than men but checking for cross dominance is something to be done very early in the going.

My brief venture as an instructor was one of my happiest times shooting yet. I took half a dozen women who'd never fired a firearm before and got them comfortable with guns and breaking targets.

Paul

 

[Father Knows Best]

1. No one should offer unsolicited advice or coaching. If you didn't ask for it, he should have kept his mouth shut. At most, he should have asked whether you were interested in getting some pointers.

2. The advice he gave, however, was correct. Once you learn to point shoot a shotgun, you will find that it works MUCH better. Unlike with rifle and pistol, you have a moving target. You need to determine target range, direction and speed. That's is almost impossible to do with only one eye. There's a reason the good Lord gave you (and every predator on the planet) two eyes set in the front of the head -- binocular vision lets you spot prey, range it and determine an intercept vector. Point shooting a shotgun that fits you is remarkably easy, because it will shoot wherever you happen to be looking.

In addition, if you look at your bead, two bad things happen. First, you lose focus on the target. No one can focus on both something close up, like a shotgun bead, and something distant like your target at the same time. If the shotgun fits you, and you know how to point shoot, it doesn't matter. You can just look at the target, and that's where you are going to hit when you pull the trigger.

Worse, you lose time. By taking your focus off the target and looking at the bead to "fine tune your lead", you are wasting time -- a LOT of time. That might not matter much in singles skeet, but it will kill you shooting doubles.

Sometimes, the reason everybody does something a certain way is because generations before you discovered that it works.

As Kaiser Wilhelm famously said, "Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. Wise men learn from others' mistakes."

 

[Hardtarget]

I'm not a coach and I don't play one on T.V. (had to say that) When I tried to start my sons with shotgunning they already had several years with rifle and pistol. They showed an understanding of sight alignment,breathing and trigger control. My only advise was"rifle and pistol shooting is like science but shotgunning is like art." Not much to go on, was it? Must have worked...I think they're both better "artist" . Don't get me wrong. We worked on the learning curve for shotgunning. I read all the posts here and wish I understood half of it. All I know is I like shooting...I'll just not be competing. Hitting makes it more fun so I'm still learning.
Mark.

 

[mete]

" my barrel never stops moving" can you show me a video that proves that ? The reason I ask is that after years of shooting rifle and handgun I learned shotgun.The intructor was a very fine one from England.At one point he said I was changing my focus from bird to front sight therefore missing. Since he was standing behind me I asked how he could tell. He explained that he was watching the muzzle - as the bird came out the muzzle moved smoothly but at one point hesitated then continued. That hesitation was where I was switching focus from bird to sight !! You don't have to stop the barrel to miss, even a slight hesitation will do it .If your eyes are normal use both of them.

 

[c_yeager]

No one should offer unsolicited advice or coaching. If you didn't ask for it, he should have kept his mouth shut.

but WHY?

Why is advice considered to be insulting? As long as a person knows what they are talking about i have always been *thankfull* of unsolicited help. What could possibly be wrong with well thought out advice for a person who clearly could benefit from it? Is it insulting to their manhood or something? Are people supposed to be able to instinctively know how to do everything?

 

[dfaugh]

Reminds meofwhenI was a "kid"...

and used shoot "informal" trap at the local gunshop/range...Usually shot 100 birds when I went...One time I hadn't been for a while...Missed 2 of the 1st five targets...So an older guy (I was like 15)walks over with his $2000 trap gun (I was using a 20 gauge Mossberg 500 field gun)...and tells me what I'm doing wrong, then asks if he can shoot the ones I miss. (I think he was trying out the gun, towards deciding on a purchase.)...I'm shooting with the gun down, and my father is working the trap...Not allowed to call for the target, Dad would send it whenever, from slightly behind me...trying to duplicate hunting situations.) I said no problem, then proceeded to hit 87 straight birds. When I finally did miss, he did too. I then hit all remaining targets.

My Dad never said a word...but had a BIG grin on his face all the way home.