Why do sniper, varmint, or precision rifles have to be big and heavy?

[Joseph85]

It seems as though all sniper rifles, varmint rifles, and precision rifles are very large and very heavy with huge stocks, huge scopes, and huge barrels.

I understand that a heavy, thick barrel is more rigid and can shoot tighter groups for a longer period of time before overheating. But at the same time, a 26" long 1" thick barrel is pretty darn heavy.

I also understand that some people only shoot sitting down at a bench or table with their uber rifle bolted to a mechanical rest. A bipod is practical, but these mechanical rests are not portable. I don't understand this style of shooting as the human element is almost entirely removed.

Wouldn't a sniper want something more like a typical hunting rifle? Less weight and when properly bedded to a good stock with a good barrel and good trigger is very consistent.

Seems a whole lot more practical to have an 8 pound rifle versus a 10 pound, 14 pound, or heavier rifle.

Maybe I just enjoy practical shooting sports more than shooting off a bench or table.

I'm a little frustrated that shooting ranges I go to put a table in the way of where I want to lay prone

 

[The Tourist]

In point of fact, they don't have to be heavy at all. They all can be very accurate, for the first few shots. Mountain rifles shoot at incredible distances.

I used three rifles for varmints. Two of them were the traditional heavy barreled rifles you see here. One in 22-250, and a duplicate in .243 Win.

But I had a third one, a Reminton 700 BDL, with a thin straight taper barrel, a Simmons TV view scope, and chambered in 22-250.

Some of the areas around The National Grasslands are pretty primitive. During our first years, my wife and I took a Ford Explorer, and she usually sat around sweating, running a fan and chewing me out about heat--and the A/C back at the hotel.

But the lighter BDL was easier to carry on walks, and just as accurate. In fact, I found one load that worked in both rifles.

 

[Jason_G]

It all boils down to the intended use of the rifle. If it's meant for medium-long range use where the rifle needs to be pretty easy to carry around, then I'm with you in the notion that a 15 lb rifle would surely suck to lug around. Something like a 9-10 lb accurized battle rifle would make more sense. On the flip side, if extreme accuracy out to distances approaching one km is your goal, and the rifle is not going to have to be moved around a whole lot, then a heavier long range rifle with a thick rigid barrel makes sense. Remember, a heavier rifle is going to also move less in terms of recoil.

Jason

 

[bogie]

A heavy barrel is easier to tune.

A thin and whippy barrel has more intrinsic vibration, so you're going to have more room between nodes. Which means greater dispersion.

Even with just a few shots. It's not about heat.

 

[Taurus44]

The ranges at which "real" snipers and varmint hunters engage targets is often times extreme, and in the case of the sniper, hits are imperative. Shots are also taken under stress, so eliminating the human factor as much as possible is desirable. Heavier guns suck to drag all day on your belly, but they're great when you've been up for 40 hours, you're shaking like a leaf and having a hard time catching your breath.

For urban tactical shooters, the ranges are usually shorter. So the bigger, heavier guns aren't needed as much. But, I think they stick with the "industry standard" tactical rifles anyway because, well, they're tactical. A lot of times, the urban guys just shorten the barrel a few inches and call it a day.

Varmint hunters are shooting extremely small targets at sometimes ridiculous ranges. Taking as much of the human factor (shooting from a bench usually) out of the equation is also desirable. A prarie-dog at 500 yards is really freaking small!

My personal long range/urban tactical bolt gun is a sort of compromise. It has a heavy barrel, but it is "short" at about 22". And once it got properly broken-in and sighted-in, it hasn't been fired from a bench or a rest.

Although... I'm becomming more and more enamoured with my 18.5" "SPR-built" 6.5 Grendel every trip to the range.

 

[stubbicatt]

I dunno. I use a "pencil barrel" CZ 527 LUX in the prairie dog fields, and I don't have an issue hitting what I aim at. Most shots are about 250 to 450 yards or so. Perhaps it is the shooter more than it is the rifle?

It's a lot easier to carry too. Also good for coyotes. Very versatile rifle.

 

[cracked butt]

Seems a whole lot more practical to have an 8 pound rifle versus a 10 pound, 14 pound, or heavier rifle

If you want to travel lighter, for most of us its probably easier, cheaper, and makes more sense to lose 5-10lbs of body weight and keep the heavier rifle to shoot it accurately than to shave the same amount of weight off a rifle and expect to shoot well with it.

Shooting from any position whether or not that position includes a bipod, backpack, fallen tree or benchrest, I'd much rather use a 15lb rifle than a 7lb rifle if I had to make a long shot.

 

[cmidkiff]

Very few shooters are capable of pushing the limits of their rifles, regardless of the rifle's capabilities. From a bench mounted mechanical rest with a heavy rifle, a light trigger, and a good scope, a brand new shooter can produce a decent group out to 100 yards or so. In the field, or at longer range, things change dramatically.

I like a heavy barrel, if I'm going to be sitting on a bench. The weight reduces the pounding you take, if nothing else. From a prone position (and without a bipod), a long, heavy barrel makes my shooting worse, not better. In the field, where you're walking more than shooting, trading weight for recoil doesn't make any sense at all. Luckily, I can own different rifles for different applications.

Modern military snipers have a wide variety of weapons available to them. They should have the freedom to select whatever weapon they feel is best for the mission at hand. If that's an accurate but lightweight AR10, great. If it's a 40lb bolt gun in .50bmg with match ammo, that's fine too. Depends on the mission, and the guy behind the bolt.

 

[Zak Smith]

One problem with these barrel comparisons is that often people are comparing a lightweight hunting barrel produced by the gazillions to custom high-end target barrels. Well, of course the latter will shoot better, and shoot better hot, than the former.

"Tactical" shooters in the U.S. tend to favor very heavy barrel profiles - I make this judgement by looking at the factory options most-used my LE departments, and the M24 and M40 military sniper rifles. However, if you look at foreign sniper rifles like the AI-AW (UK, etc) and SAKO TRG-22/42 (Finland, etc), they ship with proportionally much lighter weight barrels, yet these rifles shoot as well as the US heavy-barreled counterparts.

 

[rcmodel]

This is true!

As for light barrels being hard to tune because they are "whippy"?

So how does CZ turn out 6 pound 527's by the gazillions that will shoot bug-hole groups all day, with no tuning or "trick" bedding?

Between myself and a few hunting friends, we have an assortment of 7 527's in .223 & .204 Ruger, and every one of them will shoot sub-MOA groups on demand.

It's gotta be the barrel quality & single-set triggers folks!

rcmodel

 

[bogie]

If the light barrels shoot just as well, why don't benchresters use them, where it is better to have more weight toward the rear of the rifle?

Here's what I mean by tuning...

When you yank on the go-button, the striker goes forward, hits the primer, and all sorts of things happen, among them vibration. Primarily, the bullet goes down the tube. Now, since the barrel/action combination is supported at zero degrees underneath by the stock, it tends to want to go up and down. Which means the business end is going up and down.

Now, the bullet is going to exit somewhere along that up/down swing. What you want to do is "tune" it, by a combination of powder quantity, seating depth away/into the lands, and neck tension, to exit at either the top of the vibrational cycle, where it just sort of pauses, or at the bottom. Because in the middle, it's more likely to come out in a different spot...

sub-MOA groups suck. Gotta do better than that.

 

[Walkalong]

If the light barrels shoot just as well, why don't benchresters use them

because we shoot more than one or two shots at a time, and sometimes "run" a string of shots. It has to stay at exactly the same POI during a quick run of shots.

We may shoot 4 or more sighters, and then run a string of 5 on target. The slightest change in POI will ruin our group and chance to win. (If we don't do it all by ourselves )

 

[Tarvis]

My prarie dog gun is 13 pounds with the scope. It's heavy, especially the further away from the truck you get. At the same time, it heats up slower and recoils less so I can call my own shots at 150 yards and beyond. Besides, I decided I wanted this peticular rifle in this peticular setup, so there wasn't a decision to make either way. If I had a chance to do it again, I'd probably do the same thing.

 

[Snipe315]

I see lots of folks saying their rifle with a thin barrel is plenty accurate out to 200-400 yards and beyond.

Well anything under 500 yards isn't really long distance at all for military shooters. Heck, the U. S. Marines qualify out to 500 yards with their M16A2/A4's.

As some have said... Different Tools for Different Jobs.

No one likes lugging a heavy rifle around. Hell, one of the complaints about the current M40A3 is the weight. It all depends on what your priorities are and where you can find a compromise between weight and performance.

 

[Zak Smith]

Once the bullet is launched, it doesn't know what kind of barrel it came from-- outside of its kinetic parameters. In other words, a load that shoots 1 MOA at 400 yards from a skinny barrel isn't going to fall out of the sky at 501 yards if it's the same bullet shot at the same velocity as a thick barrel.

FWIW, my .260 barrel is med-Palma contour and has shot to 1670 yards..

-z

 

[rcmodel]

O.K. if I agree that military snipers need HB 15 pound rifles because they are all making one-shot kills at 1,400 yards all day long, and their barrels over-heat!
Will someone answer this one then.

Why do police snipers need them when their average long-range shot is less then 75 yards!

They could manage that with a Marlin 30-30 & a 3x scope quite nicely!

rcmodel

 

[USSR]

Why do police snipers need them when their average long-range shot is less then 75 yards!

They could manage that with a Marlin 30-30 & a 3x scope quite nicely!

Lawyers. Using anything other than a "purpose built" firearm in a shooting incident will get you torn apart in a court of law.

Don

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

Why do police snipers need them when their average long-range shot is less then 75 yards!

They could manage that with a Marlin 30-30 & a 3x scope quite nicely!

It's very simple: tactical professionals don't use archaic, outdated, nearly useless weaponry. When it comes to taking 75-yard tactical shots at hostage takers in shopping malls, only the most accurate tactical rifles will suffice.







Right.

 

[Bullet]

I always thought the thicker barrels were more stable (less whip) than thinner barrels.

Zak Smith
FWIW, my .260 barrel is med-Palma contour and has shot to 1670 yards..

I thought the reason Palma contour barrels weren’t thicker was because they were shot off a sling. What kind of groups do you get at 1670 yards?

 

[Seafarer12]

What kind of groups do you get at 1670 yards?

He didn't say he got groups just shot that far out.

 

[Zak Smith]

Palma barrels are contoured as they are to provide optimal accuracy within a weight limit. They usually use 28-30" barrels in order to get maximum sight radius (no optics). It just so happens the AI-AW uses a Palma profile..

Here's the 1672 thread
260REM datapoint at 1672 yards - THR

With regard to whip-- other shooters have claimed they can see my 26" med-Palma barrel whip when I have the approx 1 lb sound suppressor screwed on the end. I'm not too worried about it because it has excellent accuracy and retains everything even when very hot.

 

[Bullet]

Zak Smith

Read your link. Sounds like fun. I wish I had somewhere to even shoot 1,000 yards. We have to drive at least an hour to shoot 600 yards.

 

[Joseph85]

Zak Smith's first post regarding barrel comparisons between "hunting rifle barrels" and high end custom barrels is interesting.

Shilen, for example, makes "sporter" barrels with the same contour as hunting rifles.

I'd like to see some custom rifles that weigh around 7 to 8 pounds.

 

[seeker_two]

I understand the advantage of a "bull barrel" on a rifle. What I don't understand is why a sniper/target shooter would want a long (24"+) barrel instead of a shorter (< 20") bull barrel......

IMHO, the FN Patrol Rifles in 18-20" barrel configuration is ideal.....

What say you?.....

 

[browningguy]

The longer barrel does a couple of things, most importantly maximize velocity for a given load. At 1000 yards you need your bullet to stay supersonic, and higher is better.

Also the weight doesn't hurt, heavier gun = less free recoil. And I know their are manly types that recoil doesn't bother, but when you are shooting at 600-1000 yards you want as little worry and interference as possible. And anticipating recoil is a big no-no.

As for the original post, I'm not sure why you would consider prone shooting etc. as more practical, and seem to be denigrating bench resters. I hunt quite a bit, and shoot everything from 3 gun to F class, and one is not better than the other, just different. I don't shoot Benchrest because I know I am no longer able to control the 8 oz. trigger well enough to be competitive, but it's another good shooting sport for some people.