Why do some CCW courses don't require range time?

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I double checked, and I still don't see where the Second Amendment authorizes the need for classes before being able to legally conceal a firearm....

In all seriousness, though, both the Ohio and Colorado classes I took had rangetime.
 
What does AK and VT require?
Nada.And they seem to be doing just fine.
AK, 44th in violent crime,FBI per capita.
VT,47th " ",etc.
We don't need training stipulations.Thank you,PTK.
 
bluest state (outside of California) you've ever seen is Washington State.
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Not to get competitive but I think Oregon is "more blue" in general but we do have a few gun advantages like the ability to own NFA items.

Either way in Oregon it was a quick 3hr class no range time and no gun handling. Also my New Hampshire non-resident was as easy as an online form.
 
Hmmm....that's a bit scary if you don't require ANY range time and you have people who can't even handle firearms correctly walking around with loaded CCW...

Here in Nevada, initial application is 8hours of lecture, including some range time. EACH weapon that you CCW needs to be qulified with a shooting test to show some marksmanship competence, which is from 5,7,3 yards, so it's really not very difficult. But when I added a couple of additonal handguns, I had to go to the range to qualify with them for $$, then some more $$ to add those to my card.
 
I got my ccw in Utah. My brother got his in Iowa and my other brother got his in California. They both had to do range time and had similar shooting proficiency requirements they had to pass before receiving their ccw. Utah's was a joke. My experience was similar. A lot of people who didn't seem to know a lot about firearms. There was a lot of useful information shared and laws discussed, but how can the instructor know if we retained or even understood all the information. I honestly feel a ccw should be like a driver license. You should have to take a written test and a practical test. I mean, your being given a license to carry a firearm in public. As such, you should be required to prove you know the laws and safety issues, and to prove you know how to use the gun. That's why we have a written and practical test if you want to drive a car on public roads. It only makes sense for public safety and health.
 
"I still don't see where the Second Amendment authorizes the need for classes before being able to legally conceal a firearm." --PTK

True. It also doesn't state you have to be 18 or 21 to own a handgun. It also doesn't state you cannot have committed a violent felony in the past. It also doesn't state you cannot have suicidal or homicidal tendencies. You see, sometimes we can see something is commonsensical and create laws accordingly. For my self, I personally didn't care that I didn't have to qualify because I'm comfortable with my knowledge and skill with firearms. But I can definitely say that I would not want to be in a public place with some of the people in my class whent the SHTF and they have to pull their firearm that has 20 rounds through it. Come to think of it, I wouldn't want to be in a public place with them when it's all sunshine and lollipops, and they sit down on a bench opposite me and the chapstick in their pocket pulls the trigger on their snubby and bang, I'm bleeding from my chest. I'm telling you, some of these people were not competent with firearms.
 
I noticed that here in VA. My CC class included range time, but last year the Gander Mountain was offering a 2-hour safety class that counted as a permit requirement.

They *really* need to get their act together with these 'safety' classes. Nothing homogenous about it.
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Virginia law is quite clear about what is required. Basically you have to show some kind of formal safety training with a firearm. An NRA basic gun safety course, or a hunters safety course for example.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm

Note there is no requirement for any range time. You do not even have to own a firearm. You can do more if you chose to, but it's not required.

http://www.vcdl.org/static/index.html
 
I got my permit here in Utah, and the 4 hour class was definitely geared more towards the legalities of carrying, with a little bit of info about actual shooting and handguns. To me that seems alright, the CFP class should cover the legal issues in detail, but really learning how to use your weapon is up to you. I mean, does one mandatory range session really make you that much more prepared to draw and fire your weapon at someone in public, in a total panic situation?
 
Here's where I'm torn.

As a proponent of the 2nd Amendment...FOR EVERYONE, I believe that you shouldn't need a permit, or any other requirement to carry a handgun.

Yet, I don't think it is such a bad idea to require some minimal proficiency be demonstrated before doing so. Sort of like driver's licences. We don't just let anyone who feels like stomping on an accellerator jump in a vehicle and take off, do we? No. There's training involved.

Here in Missouri, we are required to take an 8 hour class that MUST include 2 hours on Missouri CCW law, and a 20 round qualification with the type of firearm you will carry (pistol, revolver, or both).

During the range portion, there were people who had never fired a gun before. Even though safety was covered in the class, people were still sweeping other's with the muzzle, unable to load their own guns because of unfamiliarity, and other novice mistakes. (which were corrected)

So, I firmly believe that a person shouldn't need a licence as a "permission slip" from the government. I believe they should need one to demonstrate that they have taken a training course so they do not pose a threat to other's safety.

I just wonder what the response is from those of you who proclaim their state's freedom from "oppressive" requirements?

I realize that blood has failed to run in the streets. Yet, aren't you just a little apprehensive that there are people carrying out there who have NO CLUE THAT THE "FOUR RULES" EVEN EXIST? For those of you in these "free" states, why is a demonstration of safety such a facist and jack-booted government fist?
 
both the Ohio and Colorado classes I took had rangetime.
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Yes...Ohio requires; "a total of 12 hours of training which includes two hours of live fire training".
http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/pubs/concealed_carry_training.pdf
I did a 10 hour class covering the NRA "Basic Pistol Course", then a 2 hour live fire portion firing 50 rounds from 50 feet at a 3'x4' piece of white paper. Many of the attendees in the class had little or no firearms experience. Some had never touched a gun before. So yes, I am one of those who believes that going through the bare basics of handgun operation and safety, then firing a few rounds under supervision, before they run out and carry a handgun on the streets is not an evil thing. It lessens the likelihood that they will shoot their own foot off (or shoot me by accident).
Jack
 
I don't think anyone would dispute too loudly that it is a "good idea" to have the experience behaind you before getting a permit. I don't disagree that as an idea, that makes sense.

However, to require it for fear of gun toting yahoos running around untrained and being a danger simply ignores the fact that there are tens of thousands...milliions in fact...that have a permit and no such pre-conditional training and the fears are not being realized.

Emotion says "they better be trained!" Experience in the States that have no such requirements shows that is not an issue.

Interesting quandry.
 
Neither classroom nor range time is required for a CCW permit in Georgia. That being said, I would feel better if the State of Georgia would give out copies of the state firearms laws like Florida does. And... yes, we still have the "public gathering law" :fire: and it takes forever sometimes for a permit to be approved.
 
I have a FL & UT permit. I took the classes together. Shooting was only required for the FL permit.
 
if you can't hit what you shoot at and don't know the first thing about safe gun handling you should'nt really carry in public:uhoh:
though I can see a course open to abuse set the same standard as delta/sas
then say strangely nobody can pass the course :D (well maybe one or two)

probably best compromise course of fire based on police qualification shoot with recommendations of good local ranges instructors

but I come form a country where carrying sticks is illegal sharpened or not:(
 
My class lasted 10 minutes. I put 12 rounds into paper at the Helen Keller target range ( 7 yds ) and handed him my target when done. He basically said he wanted to watch us shoot to be sure we handled the weapons safely. He handed me and my buddy our certificate and we were on our way.

We later found out we didn't need this for our CCW permit. Both of us only needed to send in our DD-214.

In all fairness, the instructor knew both of us were former military. My buddy was a former specials forces type and myself a Marine. It was good enough for him I guess as he was a former sniper for the Corps.

Chris
 
"We don't just let anyone who feels like stomping on an accellerator jump in a vehicle and take off, do we? No. There's training involved."

If a person is required to take a driving class in Virginia - say a youngster or someone who has never had a driver's license - there isn't much real training required. Note in the following quote from the DMV site the part about "7 periods of driving." Not 7 hours, 7 periods, whatever that means. I know from the students I work with that they don't get to drive for an entire school period.


"The program must present 36 classroom periods. It must include components about alcohol safety, drug abuse awareness, aggressive driving, distracted driving, motorcycle awareness and organ and tissue donation awareness. It must also include 14 in-car instruction periods, 7 periods of driving and 7 periods of observation." - VA DMV site
 
You ought to prove you can catch fish

There is a tremendous difference between being permitted by the .gov to carry a concealed weapon and being proficient in handling a weapon and/or the use of a concealed weapon.

Since none of the states seem to require a demonstration of ability to shoot from concealment, my guess is that any range time associated with the training process is merely "feel good" legislation that allows the politicians to say they made sure the folks who got permission to carry concealed were "safe".

Many folks use pocket carry without ever causing injury to anybody except the BG, but you never see a requirement to demonstrate proficiency with that method. Same for crossdraw or ankle or SOB carry.

So would somebody explain to me how demonstrating your ability to either merely shoot or hit the target a certain number of times from either a strong-side holster or just holding the gun can say anything about your ability to shoot proficiently and safely from concealed carry.

For all of you out there who say that there ought to be a shooting proficiency test passed before you get a concealed carry permit - do you also support a proficiency test for fishing licenses? How about for using a cellphone - there seem to be more accidents while using cellphones that both while carrying concealed and while fishing. How about a requirement that newspaper delivery persons be required to demonstrate proficiency at actually getting the paper on the doorstep or in the paperbox? I hear more complaints about that than I do about folks who carry concealed not being able to shoot in a safe manner.

As for the driver's license analogy - driving is actually using the car. Carrying is just that and nothing more. My concealed carry permit does not give me permission to shoot. As a matter of fact, if I do shoot somebody I am breaking at least one (but probably mote than one) law. If I shoot, there will be a decision made first of all whether or not to charge me with breaking the law, and then possibly a trial to determine if I was justified in, or can be excused for, having broken the law. So your analogy falls flat on its face.

It's bad enough that our inalienable right can be infringed to the extent it is. Actually standing up and saying that there ought to be even more infringement is beyond reason.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Hmmm....that's a bit scary if you don't require ANY range time and you have people who can't even handle firearms correctly walking around with loaded CCW...
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You're assuming that people learn to handle weapons properly in ccw classes. Given the comments I hear on them and the safety record of those states you're scared of, that probably isn't true.

Yet, I don't think it is such a bad idea to require some minimal proficiency be demonstrated before doing so. Sort of like driver's licences. We don't just let anyone who feels like stomping on an accellerator jump in a vehicle and take off, do we? No. There's training involved.
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You're really falling into the same trap the antis do and letting your imagination dictate legislation. There is no reason to guess or imagine what might happen, the data is there. Look at the states that have no training requirements. Is there a safety problem? If not don't worry about fixing what isn't broken.
 
I have a FL & UT permit. I took the classes together. Shooting was only required for the FL permit.
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That had to be the individual instructor.
Florida law doesn't require range time,only a safety course.Even this is waived ,as REB pointed out ,if you can produce a DD214,NRA training certificate,etc.
 
CountGlockula

I also have a Kali CCW, for over a dozen years and a Utah permit.

But, the responsibility for training is ours, as individuals. Don't let California's "nanny state" mentality pollute you.

I've spent thousands of dollars on training to meet my personal sense of accountability.
 
An earlier poster said that FL does not require a shooting exercise. That is both right and wrong. True, a DD214 works, but....if using the NRA course or course taught by an NRA instructor, there must be a shooting component. Here is the actual text of the law:

any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;
 
I don't see where most CCW class range time has any bearing as to what a person might face in a lethal force encounter. It's usually a minimal amount of rounds fired, no stress, well lit, non-threatening target, etc. I don't see that as training. Now, assuming bad habits are not being reinforced, any trigger time is good time.

I teach courses here in Colorado as well and I've never required shooting for the above reasons and mostly because it's not required by the state. I think that's a good thing. The easier, the better.

Where has the lack of range time requirements caused a problem? No doubt there are isolated incidents, just as there are always going to be people who shouldn't have a gun in the first place. But, you can count me in the "if you can legally own a gun you should be able to carry it" camp. Personally, I'd rather spend my time in class informing students on potential legal issues and how to avoid problems in the first place.
 
As I have said many times -- having decades of experience in the commercial and military training industry, training is a solution.

Before you suggest a solution, you should have a problem. And there should be a relationship between your problem and your proposed solution.

What is the problem?

I have heard people say, "CCW carriers should get more range time." So the problem is too many citizens missing when they have to shoot?

I have heard people say, "CCW carriers should at least be able to strip and clean their buns." So the problem is too many dirty guns out there?

Find and document a problem that could be solved by more range time.
 
An earlier poster said that FL does not require a shooting exercise. That is both right and wrong. True, a DD214 works, but....if using the NRA course or course taught by an NRA instructor, there must be a shooting component. Here is the actual text of the law:

any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;
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phorvick,I was talking about the required safety class of about 2 hours given at gun shops,gun shows,etc. by a qualfied instructor.No range time is required.
Upon sending your application to Tallahassee,you have to show proof of training in the form of the DD214,NRA and so on if you want to avoid the safety class.Of course those prove you've handled firearms.Then you don't have to take the safety class
But the class itself has no test and no range time.
My son who has no military,NRA or any other certificate showing he has handled firearms,simply took the safety class received a certicate of completion,sent it all to Tally and received his permit 60 days later.
No firearms were ever handled or discharged by him or any others in his class.
This was 6 years ago.My DD214 sufficed for me 18 years ago.
Has this component of handling and discharging been recently added?
 
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