Why does everyone do their own thing with AR-10?

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay so when I turned 21, I bought an HK USP Tactical 45 as a b-day present to myself. It never worked right. Total lemon. And HK refused to service it for me. So it collected dust for years before I finally sold it to a friend from college who said he had a friend who was an HK Certified Armorer. I bought a Springfield Armory M1A with money I got from inheritance when my mom died. I loved that rifle for 1,200 rounds or so. Then the gas system shot loose. I finally got it to Springfield Armory and their customer service took care of me. I got the gas system unitized. When I get the rifle back from them I take it to the range to re-zero the rifle because for whatever reason they took it upon themselves to screw with my sights to fix my gas system. It's like having your mechanic mess with your seat and radio settings to give you an oil change. It makes no sense, but I digress. I get about a dozen rounds through the rifle before the bolt roller falls off the rifle. Perturbed, I do a little research and discover this thing called "Springfield bolt roller impact defect." Great. Now twice burned by proprietary technology (the HK and SA's cast receiver), I refuse to go down that road again. I like Glocks cause they are simple. I can fix or replace about anything that can go wrong with a Glock myself with minimal tools, and parts are available from any number of different vendors. I don't mind "performance enhancing" something. I have a stainless rod and 20 pound spring in my Glock 20. But I refuse to alter a firearm to the point where it can not be restored to factory condition for use with readily available factory parts. You can do this with an AR-15 as well. There is a well established TDP, or Mil-Spec for this design that allows you to buy a Colt 6920 and know you can use a X-brand bolt carrier group as long as it meets these requirements.
I want to replace my defunct M1A with a 7.62x51mm semi-auto with a service life of over 1200 rounds. But I won't use proprietary technology. And therein lies the problem. The 17S doesn't have a lot of modularity or options from factory. You have to buy the one version they offer, then spend thousands changing a $3,000. Which is poo-y. All I want is an 18 inch barrel, a trigger that doesn't suck, and a handguard longer than 4 inches. Likewise, getting a real M14 set up is prohibitively expensive. Nobody makes a decent G3 clone. And as DSA now apparently makes their FALs with investment case receivers, it appears there is now very limited options for a decent version of the Right Arm of the Free World. That leaves the AR-10. It should be a no brainer. Except the entire market apparently overthinks this and instead of embracing one of the biggest selling points of its more successful little brother, the AR-15, the AR-10 gets "enhanced" to the point where it seems like every single one of them is proprietary. I don't care how sexy and "improved" the DD5V2 is, if there is only one place I can get a bolt carrier group or a forend...

Why does everyone do there own thing with the AR-10? Wouldn't it be easier for everybody if we kept it simple and had a single well-defined standard?

 

[Varminterror]

Well...

Effectively, there are 2 designs for the AR-10 & LR-308 platforms... Can't really complain too much about that. Different companies use their own proprietary uppers, barrel nuts, and handguards, even in the AR-15, so that's really non-sequitur to complain about as unique to the AR-10.

Comparatively, in your Glock - a semiauto pistol - you have to use proprietary parts, or compatible licensed parts - can't go sticking a Springfield XD barrel into it... You have to use a barrel made specifically for that model... You actually have MORE parts choice versatility with the average Armalite or DPMS pattern AR-10/LR-308 than you do with your pistol. But you sing the praises of one, and fault the other...

 

[MTMilitiaman]

But any barrel or magazine or front sight or holster or ________ labeled as fitting a Glock 20 will fit my Glock 20. I can go to any number of places, from a store down the street to half a dozen websites I can think of off the top of my head to get these parts. This can not be said about the AR-10. With the AR-15 there is a standard. If you want to take advantage of this, you can, though certainly there are plenty of "improved" AR-15s as well. It is much harder to do this with the AR-10. There doesn't seem to be a standard. I realize it doesn't have the military history the AR-15/M16 has. But it seems like it shouldn't be that hard to apply pretty much the same standards to the AR-10, for the sake of uniformity and modularity.

Is there an AR-10 equivalent of the Colt AR-15? How decent are the DPMS ARs? I was under the impression they were more comparable to Bushmaster than to Colt.

 

[RPRNY]

The AR10 platform just isnt standardized. Why use a fiddly, diddly, gas gun anyway? Go German. Go G3/91. Das ist uber alles. Die anderen sind schlect.

Or FAL, if you must have extra fiddly parts.

 

[LoonWulf]

Even colt ar-15s came in forms that wouldnt work with each other......
Ive considered doing an lr-308 build, i just cant convince myself i really want one, BUT the huge array of options is one thing that i keep coming back to as a reason why i might.

 

[z7]

There are two mainstream patterns, the armalite and the dpms lr pattern

There are a ton of companies that make things for each. It is no different then a glock vs springfield with the exception that a semi auto, gas operated 308 ar15 scaled up is a bit more complex so when you switch load combos or barrel length you may need to tweak the gas system a little. Dont stress out, looks at building your own and make it how you want it

 

[macgrumpy]

First of all the M1A is no more proprietary than any other firearm, there are very few true universal parts for any series of rifles, most usually need some kind of hand fitting regardless of what the advertising tells you.

Secondly, the M1A is very easy to fix if you take the time to learn how to do the job. The bolt roller is an easy fix, the bolt roller contact issue is fixed in about 3 minutes with a Dremel or a round file. The loose gas system isn't an issue, the whole thing is loose to begin with, I don't know how you define it having "shot loose" but unless you are talking about blowing parts off the rifle it wasn't really something to have sent it back to the manufacturer for. Most people don't even bother with unitizing the gas system, it has very little effect on tactical accuracy and no effect on safety or operation. I've owned several M1As and currently have three of them, all of them have had well over 3,000 rounds through each and my oldest rifle has had something like 8,000 rounds or more through it (yes it needs a new barrel). The only parts that "broke" on my rifles were the worn out barrel and two springs (bolt lock and gas cylinder valve) along with the standard springs that you should replace over the life of the rifle (op rod, trigger, etc.).

Finally, as z7 says, there are basically two patterns and I'd go with the one that has the options that you like and fits your wallet best.

 

[Robert]

As the others have said there are 2 major patterns of AR308, the DPMS Pattern and the Armalite Pattern. While there are others those are the two main players. The DPMS Pattern has the edge in the aftermarket but Armalite has a good following. I built my own DPMS pattern. Every single parts and accessory manufacturer that I sourced parts from made it very clear which part was for which rifle. It was not hard.

And according to the DSA website they only upper that is made from a casting is the Type 3, and that things is over built to begin with. The Type 1 and 2 receiver are still made with 4140 steel that they CNC.

 

[MistWolf]

Why does everyone do their own thing with bolt action rifles? Revolvers? Lever actions? Or any other firearm type?

The front sight of your M1A had to be removed in order to get the gas block off to be unitized. You should expect having to rezero a rifle after the front sight has been removed and reinstalled.

Personally, I think you should stick with a Glock and a standard AR carbine. I don't think you'll be happy with anything else

 

[Sunray]

Because the current AR-10's are not AR-10's. Just like an M1A is not an M-14. They're commercial variations with entirely different internal parts. Only 9900 real select fire AR-10's(including 5 sent to Finland in 7.62 x 39 for tests) were ever made. All of which fall under the ATF's Edict of, 'Once an MG, Always an MG.. Just like a real M-14.
Most of the current examples are just heavier constructed AR-15's.
"...a service life of over 1200 rounds..." No rifle is worn out with just 1200 rounds. 12,000 maybe.
"... investment case..." That'd be investment cast just like Rugers and you engine block.

 

[salt&battery]

Okay so when I turned 21, I bought an HK USP Tactical 45 as a b-day present to myself. It never worked right. Total lemon. And HK refused to service it for me. So it collected dust for years before I finally sold it to a friend from college who said he had a friend who was an HK Certified Armorer. I bought a Springfield Armory M1A with money I got from inheritance when my mom died. I loved that rifle for 1,200 rounds or so. Then the gas system shot loose. I finally got it to Springfield Armory and their customer service took care of me. I got the gas system unitized. When I get the rifle back from them I take it to the range to re-zero the rifle because for whatever reason they took it upon themselves to screw with my sights to fix my gas system. It's like having your mechanic mess with your seat and radio settings to give you an oil change. It makes no sense, but I digress. I get about a dozen rounds through the rifle before the bolt roller falls off the rifle. Perturbed, I do a little research and discover this thing called "Springfield bolt roller impact defect." Great. Now twice burned by proprietary technology (the HK and SA's cast receiver), I refuse to go down that road again. I like Glocks cause they are simple. I can fix or replace about anything that can go wrong with a Glock myself with minimal tools, and parts are available from any number of different vendors. I don't mind "performance enhancing" something. I have a stainless rod and 20 pound spring in my Glock 20. But I refuse to alter a firearm to the point where it can not be restored to factory condition for use with readily available factory parts. You can do this with an AR-15 as well. There is a well established TDP, or Mil-Spec for this design that allows you to buy a Colt 6920 and know you can use a X-brand bolt carrier group as long as it meets these requirements.
I want to replace my defunct M1A with a 7.62x51mm semi-auto with a service life of over 1200 rounds. But I won't use proprietary technology. And therein lies the problem. The 17S doesn't have a lot of modularity or options from factory. You have to buy the one version they offer, then spend thousands changing a $3,000. Which is poo-y. All I want is an 18 inch barrel, a trigger that doesn't suck, and a handguard longer than 4 inches. Likewise, getting a real M14 set up is prohibitively expensive. Nobody makes a decent G3 clone. And as DSA now apparently makes their FALs with investment case receivers, it appears there is now very limited options for a decent version of the Right Arm of the Free World. That leaves the AR-10. It should be a no brainer. Except the entire market apparently overthinks this and instead of embracing one of the biggest selling points of its more successful little brother, the AR-15, the AR-10 gets "enhanced" to the point where it seems like every single one of them is proprietary. I don't care how sexy and "improved" the DD5V2 is, if there is only one place I can get a bolt carrier group or a forend...

Why does everyone do there own thing with the AR-10? Wouldn't it be easier for everybody if we kept it simple and had a single well-defined standard?

amazing that you had trouble with an HK and a M1A. investment casting if it is done right and it is today I've heard stronger then forged

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Wow, thanks for the replies, guys. Any input on the quality of the newer DPMS and Armalite AR-10s, in particular the Armalite 18 inch Tactical and the DPMS Mk12?
http://www.dpmsinc.com/308-MK-12_ep_96-1.html
https://armalite.com/shop/ar-tactical-18/

Go German. Go G3/91. Das ist uber alles. Die anderen sind schlect.

I would, if, as I said originally, I could find anyone who made a decent example. But a rifle that dirty needs a chrome lined bore and chamber, IMO, and I would want the paddle-style mag release and the ambi-switch. Since I am not willing to pay $4K on an OG HK91, no such animal exists. All you have is the PTR91, and CETME builds assembled by Century's poorly trained monkeys.

First of all the M1A is no more proprietary than any other firearm

Yes, it is. So proprietary is the M1A that a lot of M14-smiths won't work on them. The cast receiver makes that rifle as proprietary and difficult to work with as anything on the market. If you have an M1A, Springfield is about your only option for a lot of servicing.

I went from 2 MOA with iron sights and cheap M80 ball to 8 MOA of vertical stringing. If that is your definition of "no effect on tactical accuracy," then you obviously define accuracy differently than me. And if I have to send the rifle to three different people to have it fixed, I don't really consider that easy.

And according to the DSA website they only upper that is made from a casting is the Type 3, and that things is over built to begin with. The Type 1 and 2 receiver are still made with 4140 steel that they CNC.

That's good to know.

The front sight of your M1A had to be removed in order to get the gas block off to be unitized. You should expect having to rezero a rifle after the front sight has been removed and reinstalled.

Personally, I think you should stick with a Glock and a standard AR carbine. I don't think you'll be happy with anything else

But why would the rear site be messed with?

And I am not completely satisfied with the AR carbine either. I like "real" rifles. I live in big country. That's why I want a 7.62x51 that actually functions without parts falling off it.

No rifle is worn out with just 1200 rounds.

I have been unable to get more than 1200 rounds through my M1A without multiple parts rattling loose or falling off the rifle. Your results may vary, I consider that worn out. I've owned the rifle for 8 years but have fired a mere 12 rounds through it in the last 6 years. Even if and when I get it fixed, I could never trust it for anything even remotely serious or important. Essentially, flabbergasted and frustrated, I have thrown in the towel for that rifle at 1200 rounds. It's done. Stick a fork in it.

 

[DukeConnor]

Ill give you 500 for the m1a.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I think what you are looking for is a KAC SR25.

A version of that rifle (XM-110) is in the military arsenal. Probably the closest thing to a military AR-10.

They start at about 4K and go up from there.

Personally, I'm not sure that the 308 will be with us much longer as a military precision rifle cartridge. Newer cartridges have been developed that work better and come in a smaller package. One of these days we're all going to wake up and find the military is no longer using 5.56 and 7.62 for much of anything. Isn't that going to be a shocker? I know NATO this and NATO that. Those times are probably over also. They won't be going to war with us in Syria (Russia) or N. Korea (China) in any game changing capacity. The UN is nothing more than a consensus builder for action taken by any country that wants to take military action.

If I were going to spend 2K on a rifle I would seriously look at an AR15 and 6.5 Grendel. That is no poodle shooter, amigos.

 

[MCMXI]

And I am not completely satisfied with the AR carbine either. I like "real" rifles. I live in big country. Poodle shooters aren't really my thing. That's why I want a 7.62x51 that actually functions without parts falling off it.

You might want to take a look at POF's P308 offerings. I've had mine for years and despite the naysayers POF is still around, still offering spare parts (haven't needed any yet) and should be around for many years to come. I like that POF has remained true to their original design while incrementally improving them over the years. That's smart in my book. If you're interested in reading about the torture test of their P308 there's a link below. I've only put a thousand rounds or so through mine but I've had no issues to date. I run it 100% suppressed now and have for the last 500 or so rounds. The rifle in the link below didn't have a failure until 23,500 rounds. This is only one test but the department in question has six P308s in service.

https://pof-usa.com/torture/


Round count and part replacement

1 to 23,000 Zero malfunctions, zero parts failed
23,500 Buffer spring
28,600 Gas piston
29,800 Ejector spring and buffer
31,280 Extractor spring
34,280 Extractor
35,900 Op-rod
66,900 Op-rod
68,580 Still going with no parts required
Malfunctions = 33

 

[MAKster]

Simply put, there is not a standardized .308 AR because it is not used by the US military. We have standardized M16 and M4 designs because the military mandated the exact specifications (technical data package).

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

there are AR10s, the Armalite AR10 frame originally in .308, now flooded by similar frame clones. so many to choose from, but there will always be only one AR10 and it is Armalite.

 

[barnbwt]

Uncle Sam hasn't yet paid all the largest gun makers to produce identical/interchangeable 308 Stoner-guns for forty straight years, that's why.

They also aren't blasted by anti-gunners constantly to worried gun buyers

"there will always be only one AR10 and it is Armalite."
If only there was one Armalite (weren't they bought/sold at some point{s}?). Does that one AR10 have the little charging handle up inside the carry handle, too? Even early on, the AR10 underwent quite a bit of adaptation, the modern derivatives are no different in that regard (and it's not like DPMS's changes actually hurt anything from what I understand)

TCB[/S]

 

[Varminterror]

But any barrel or magazine or front sight or holster or ________ labeled as fitting a Glock 20 will fit my Glock 20. I can go to any number of places, from a store down the street to half a dozen websites I can think of off the top of my head to get these parts. This can not be said about the AR-10.

Not true - the same CAN be said for the Armalite AR-10 or the DPMS LR-308 platform. Order any part corresponding to either of these TWO standard platforms, and it will work.

But if you order a trigger group for a Gen 4 Glock, it won't work in your Gen 2 Glock, even if it's the same model...

With the AR-15 there is a standard.

I can think of plenty proprietary AR-15's and AR-15 component which are incompatible with what you'd consider other "standard parts," for example: the JP Rifles Glock 9mm lowers, or Ruger's proprietary takedown upper handguards, a BAJILLION handguards which require their own proprietary barrel nuts and barrel nut wrenches, Olympic/Dtech WSSM uppers, piston gas systems which are only compatible with certain handguards and BCG's, many side charging uppers - especially non-reciprocating which don't play with standard BCG's, RRA pistol uppers with their "overhead" recoil system, and the list goes on and on...

It is much harder to do this with the AR-10. There doesn't seem to be a standard.

There are two standards. You've been told, including in my first response. Maybe it does not seem to be so to you, but that's only for lack of familiarity with the two platforms.

I realize it doesn't have the military history the AR-15/M16 has.

The AR-10's military service predates that of the "AR-15," aka M16. The names themselves give this away - 10 comes before 15 and all...

How decent are the DPMS ARs? I was under the impression they were more comparable to Bushmaster than to Colt.

DPMS and Bushmaster (and Remington) are all produced on the same gear, same company. However, they, like the overwhelming majority of all AR-15 manufacturers, source parts from the same select few Forges and raw component contract manufacturers. Is a DPMS as cleanly manufactured as a Colt? Nope. Do DPMS rifles run as well and shoot as straight as Colts? Yup - usually more accurately so in fact.

 

[MachIVshooter]

And as DSA now apparently makes their FALs with investment case receivers, it appears there is now very limited options for a decent version of the Right Arm of the Free World.

There's nothing wrong with quality cast FAL receivers. But DSA uses 4140 steel. They make a good rifle, save for the one-piece cast ejector block. Those break. I understand that they have an upgrade, and when mine broke, they were happy to service it under warranty. I hate waiting, though, so I machined a slot in the ejector block and made a titanium ejector. But otherwise, I've had zero issues with my long gas system para carbine.

Having said that, I love my FAL, but in today's market, you get a lot more for your money with a .308 AR. My $1,100 PSA build is every bit as reliable as the FAL, and far more accurate.

Ares billet 80% lower ($160)
PSA 18" rifle kit with MI keymod handguard ($730 at the time)
Magpul ACS stock ($90)
Black rain trigger (on sale for $95)
UTG Sniper grip ($20)
Magpul AFG ($20)

 

[cdb1]

You might want to take a look at POF's P308 offerings. I've had mine for years and despite the naysayers POF is still around, still offering spare parts (haven't needed any yet) and should be around for many years to come. I like that POF has remained true to their original design while incrementally improving them over the years. That's smart in my book. If you're interested in reading about the torture test of their P308 there's a link below. I've only put a thousand rounds or so through mine but I've had no issues to date. I run it 100% suppressed now and have for the last 500 or so rounds. The rifle in the link below didn't have a failure until 23,500 rounds. This is only one test but the department in question has six P308s in service.

https://pof-usa.com/torture/


Round count and part replacement

1 to 23,000 Zero malfunctions, zero parts failed
23,500 Buffer spring
28,600 Gas piston
29,800 Ejector spring and buffer
31,280 Extractor spring
34,280 Extractor
35,900 Op-rod
66,900 Op-rod
68,580 Still going with no parts required
Malfunctions = 33

I had a number of customers I sold POF's to have issues with their customer service. Did some research and the consensus seemed to be the owner of POF is an engineer and the quality of their rifles is very high. The owner stresses quality of manufacture. If a customer has an issue then it is the customer's fault because POF rifles are too good to have issues. The owner is not a marketing or CS person and is not good about fixing malfunctioning rifles because his product is too good to fail.

I'm not saying this is gospel, it was stated to me by some POF owners that purchased their rifles from me.

 

[MCMXI]

I had a number of customers I sold POF's to have issues with their customer service. Did some research and the consensus seemed to be the owner of POF is an engineer and the quality of their rifles is very high. The owner stresses quality of manufacture. If a customer has an issue then it is the customer's fault because POF rifles are too good to have issues. The owner is not a marketing or CS person and is not good about fixing malfunctioning rifles because his product is too good to fail.

I'm not saying this is gospel, it was stated to me by some POF owners that purchased their rifles from me.

I've met the POF crew a few times at the SHOT Show and they are certainly very proud of their rifles and not particularly open to constructive criticism or particularly friendly so I can see where they might not be easy to deal with in the event of a rifle issue. Luckily for me, or by design, I haven't had any issues with the P415 or P308, both of which I've had for eight years or so with thousands of trouble-free rounds through the P415. My only dealings with POF CS has been to order accessories and they've been very helpful and knowledgeable.

If I were in the market for another AR308 style rifle I'd look hard at POF, LaRue, Daniel Defense and DPMS for sure, and probably SIG, and then think long and hard about a SCAR 17S. It's not an easy decision these days but so far I have zero regrets re the P308.

 

[dh1633pm]

How does a simple question regarding the AR10 meld into FN-FAL's, G3s, and investment cast receivers. I think the reasons for lack of standardization was covered nicely above, it is all about Government Mandated Specifications. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[RPRNY]

How does a simple question regarding the AR10 meld into FN-FAL's, G3s, and investment cast receivers. I think the reasons for lack of standardization was covered nicely above, it is all about Government Mandated Specifications. Nothing more and nothing less.

Because there are better alternatives to fiddly gas guns for the 308 cartridge and if the OP is dissatisfied with the options available using gas piston technology in an AR type platform, it seems reasonable that he should consider those options.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Here is another FN option.

http://www.impactguns.com/fn-scar-17s-308-16-fde-20-98541-818513008839.aspx

I know, there aren't 43 companies building one of these but it seems the military likes them. That's what we are talking about, right? If it wasn't for the military there wouldn't be 7 million AR-15's out there right now able to use drop in parts.