So why NOT an AR-10?

[Zundfolge]

I've decided that I need a .308 battle rifle.

I've been looking at the various offerings and have decided that it would be best for me to save my pennies and get a good one ... no CETME, no parts kit FAL etc.

So I've narrowed the list down to 3 rifles (each with several variations):

Springfield M1A
DSA FAL
AR-10

All three are in the $1000+ range so I don't think price is an issue (although I have seen DSA's under a grand).

I recently sold an AR-15, so I'm quite familiar with the manual of arms and ergonomics of the AR ... and I liked shooting my AR-15 (and didn't shoot it poorly). So there's that personal advantage for me.


In my digging for info on these rifles, I think I have a good idea what the advantages and disadvantages of the M1A and the FAL are, but what are the disadvantages of the AR-10?

It seems to me that as popular as the AR-15 is that the AR-10 would also be quite popular, however the M1A and FAL seem to have larger followings (the FAL makes sense because of all the inexpensive kit guns out there expanding its market).

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

AR-10 magazines are pricey. $45 for a single mag limits your ability to build up a sutiable stockpile.

Otherwise the AR-10 is a superlative rifle. The AR-10 has the best sights (mount any optic you want, or use the best iron sights ever made). It has the best trigger (installing a match grade trigger group is disturbingly easy). And no matter how you set it up, the AR-10 has the best ergonomics.

If you leave all three stock, the AR-10 will be the most accurate. If you accurize all three equally, the AR-10 will still be the most accurate.

The FAL is probably more durable and robust. In theory, the M1A would also be tougher, given that it's made out of steel and wood, with no plastic, fiberglass or aluminum. But I've seen M1As shoot themselves apart at high-power matches, so I'm not too impressed with their durability.

Some say that the AR gas system reduces reliability. But this doesn't seem to be reflected in the real world.

The AR-10 is probably a wee bit lighter and handier than the others.

Mostly the decision comes down to magazine cost vs sights/trigger/ergonomics.

 

[NMshooter]

The only problem with the AR-10 is the magazines.

RUMINT says this problem will be fixed by the end of the year.

The current magazines work OK, but are a pain in the butt with the plunger in the follower. It is more folks (me among them ) carping about $39 magazines based on the M-14 mag now that the ban is gone than anything else.

If you really want an M-14 semi auto get the LRBarms rifle. I really like the M1A, but the fourth one was still not the charm, I think Springfield has a ways to go before they get it right.

DSA makes a very good rifle.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

RUMINT says this problem will be fixed by the end of the year.

Who's RUMINT, and why does he (she? it?) think that AR-10 mags will become affordable?

Or am I misreading your comment? What "problem" does this RUMINT think will be "fixed" by the end of the year?

 

[NMshooter]

RUMor INTelligence, you know, gossip.

I do not believe the price will come down much, maybe not at all, but the new design is like a big 20 round AR-15 mag, no plunger.

Yes, I am probably getting my hopes up, but it is such a great rifle that it is a real shame quality magazines at better prices are not available.

Like I said, I am carping over something that is not a serious problem.

 

[Zundfolge]

DOH! Instaposted
RUMINT=Rumor/Intelligence

Wasn't there someone making either an AR10 receiver or an adapter to allow one to use FAL mags in an AR10?

 

[ny32182]

Yes, Bushmaster's AR-10 uses FAL mags, which are durable, cheap, and can be found everywhere.

Personally I own a DSA SA-58, and it is a fine rifle.

My next .308 would probably be either another DSA in a different configuration, or a PTR-91.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The AR-10 has really only been available from Armalite and only in a few configurations and only with 5 or ten round mags until very recently. I think this has been a large factor hindering it's popularity. With the absence of the Clinton gun ban, I have been seeing more and more of them. I have an AR-10A2 carbine and I love it. Very reliable and accurate (within reason, given that I have a 4 MOA red dot sight, not a scope).

Factory mags are expensive, but if you can live with magazines that don't lock the bolt back when empty, it takes about 10 minutes to convert G-3/Cetme mags to fit. All you have to do is remove the sheetmetal piece around the top and cut a notch for the catch. This is the best way I have found to get 30 or 40 rounds mags for the AR-10. You can take the follower out of the AR mag and modify it to fit the G-3 mag and then it will lock the slide.

I would take my AR over any other .308 autoloader, though I do enjoy my G-3 and wouldn't mind an M1A or FAL.

 

[TIMC]

I own a Bushmaster AR-10, very nice rifle. It uses FAL mags so that is a big plus for it. I use mine for pig hunting. It gets the job done! Both of these animals were taken at 100 yards with head shots.

Here is a pic of mine from last hunting season

 

[Morgan]

If you're looking for something super-rugged, I've got a VEPR in .308 you can try before you decide. The AR-10 is surely more accurate, but not enough to matter unless you're doing match shooting.

 

[Zak Smith]

I used to own a nice AR10, which ran pretty well. I sold it off for a practical bolt rifle.

But at RM3G last weekend, I saw 3 AR10's fail. They are not as easy to get running as an AR15. I think it pays to have someone who knows their way around the gas gun get the upper set up, or hope to get lucky (!).

-z

 

[swingset]

I'd go with the DPMS .308, myself.

Armalite's QC has gotten pretty spotty, from what I've been reading about the AR10's of late, and the mag price is bad.

The Bushmaster is a cool idea, but WAAAY too expensive.

The DPMS is a good, accurate rifle and a good value for what it is. Good company to deal with, too, IMHO.

 

[artherd]

The Armalite AR-10 is a good reliable accurate .308 'battle rifle' type of gun. It is still very accurate, with a chamber that can take some dirt.

The Armalite AR-10T has a VERY tight target chamber. Don't get dirt in there. It is more accurate than the AR-10 version.

I hear people absolutely *raving* about their new DPMS .308 ARs. raving about 1/2MOA or better out of an autoloader. Amazing especially for the price.

The origional is the KAC SR25 (or Mk11 Mod0 mil-spec) Many say this is still the absolute best, 1/2MOA or better, and somewhat tollerant of the elements, though it is still a PRECISION counter-sniper type weapon, not a 'battle rifle'.


Summary: There seems to be a good bit of varayance. Do you want a .308 battle-rifle that's as solid as an AK (and still good for 1.5MOA or better?) Get the Armalite AR-10.

The rest seem to be bolt-gun PRECISION rifle replacements, and should be handled accordingly. They're fantastic, anything that can deliver 20 rounds semi with around 1/2min accuracy from a M118LR load, well, that's just friggin awesome!

 

[hartzpad]

I picked up a DPMS .308 AP4 16" barrel about a month ago. Have only shot it once and recoil is not bad. Just scoped it so I'll be able to check the accuracy when I bench rest it next week.

My only gripe is that so far it will only shoot factory .308, it won't shoot any 7.62 NATO surplus nor any HSM reloads. It will shoot it but I have had a few rounds get stuck temporarily in the chamber when the extractor ripped off a chunk of the rim of the casing. I'm told by other owners that they take some break in time and that if you give the chamber a good polishing they will shoot any .308, even surplus. It is a very handy rifle and shoud shoot fine out to 500 yards. I love the 16" barrel and M4 controls. It will be a sweet rifle once I get it to take .308 surplus. IMO a great MBR for less than $1000.

 

[TGT]

Yes Hartzpad, for the money, that DPMS is a heck of a deal. I have been seriously considering one myself. Except I am concerned about the recoil being reported to be very stout when you hold it to your shoulder. If I remember, a lot of folks said the HK 91 with the retractable stock also hurt in the same way. I guess if a 308 rifle has the regular butt stock it feels ok, and if it's got a peg to rest against your shoulder it's going to hurt. Simple physics I suppose. Soooo then ultimately, if a rifle in carbine configuration is not going to be fun to shoot, is it a good good choice? (...even if it looks sooo cool)

I don't like the concerns about it being ammo fussy either that you just finished describing. That's a more serious concern indeed that I've heard before. If I remember there was a thread about this on another web sight how the problem was being adressed.

Also, the cost of the magazines concerns me less, as I don't intend to fight a war and require a crate load. But it does bother some folks.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Regarding surplus ammo problems:

I recently ran some 200 round of Indian surplus crap through my Armalite AR-10. Not a single problem. If it works with Indian it'll work with anything.

It doesn't have a problem with any other type of surplus or factory ammo, either.

But I'll echo Zak Smith's comments. The .308s seem to be a bit harder to get up and running properly than the .223s. My AR-10 had to go back to the factory right after I bought it. But Armalite's service was great, and the rifle has been 100% ever since.

 

[hartzpad]

Recoil on my DPMS AP4 is not stout, but then again, I'm not recoil shy either, I actually like some recoil and that is why I don't like .223's. I did put a rubber recoil pad on the M4 stock and it feels good now. It kicks just slightly more than my full-stock G3 clone that I had, probably becuase it weights 2-3 pounds less than the G3 did.

I'm confident that I can get it to digest surplus ammo with some break in time. Remember, I've only shot a total of about 35 rounds through it. It needs way more than that to break in.

 

[EBRDude]

I also have a DPMS AP4 .308, and I love it.
I have about 250 rds through mine so far, and I use my own reloads. No function problems whatsoever as long as you full-length resize.
It is awesome accurate, and fun to shoot. I put a regular
A2 stock in place of the retractable one.
Hartzpad, I ran a caliper over some Portugese surplus, and it measures 0.0460 at the base, verses 0.0455 of factory resized Winchester cases. This is enough to cause your sticky chamber problems. I also had the same issue when mine was new. It would tear the rim off the round.
I have not polished my chamber, just switched to reloads. Win cases with 42.3-5 gr of H4895 with a 155gr AMAX is some kind of serious accurate. With Iron sights I can make one jagged hole(.5-.75) at about 70 meters(max yard distance) with 10 rounds on a harris bipod.

Good luck with yours.