Why does our Glock 19 (gen 4) jam when our 20 yr old daughter shoots it?

trackskippy said:
Limp wristing is a BS term. It has nothing to do with "the wrist". What it is is, if you allow the arm and gun to move rearward with the recoil, it will tend to short stroke.

I got into a discussion with the boy on the MAC channel back when he posted his first video on it, and the only way I could duplicate his results, was to hold the gun sideways as he did, and hold it with my thumb and trigger finger and with no mass behind the gun when I shot. And even then it still funnctioned about 70% of the time.

I took 4 full 17 round mags (68 rounds), and held and fired one of my 17's with absolutely "no grip", just letting the gun rest on the webo of my my hand and middle finger under the trigger guard, and every round fired as it should with no stoppages. What I didnt do was, allow the gun or my arm, to move rearward with recoil.

As soon as I started letting the gun and arm do that, I started getting it to occasionally short stroke. If you keep mass behind the gun, and dont allow it or the arm to move rearward with recoil, it should function without issue.

I would watch closely when she shoots and see that she isnt doing that, and if she is, correct it. Its simple enough. For most people having the issue, its a stance problem, not a grip problem.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you explained it exactly like this...
 
TacticalJanitor said:
I read the thread, but didn't see any mention of the specific stoppages she's had. What kind are they, and are they always the same stoppage (failure to eject, failure to chamber, slide locking back without being empty)? Do they tend to be in the first couple of rounds, or towards the last rounds in the magazine?

I'd also ask how many rounds have been through that Glock. The fastest, easiest, and cheapest troubleshooting step may be to replace the recoil spring assembly (a $15.00 project). I own a couple of Gen 4 Glocks that would barely pass the RSA test out of the box. If you have a weak or defective RSA and good technique, it may run fine. A weak RSA and less-than-perfect technique could lead to a problem that's tough to diagnose. I'd also make sure that you have the current generation of RSA for that Glock. Sometimes they are updated/upgraded during a generation.

If you suspect limp wristing, it may be a good test to ask her to shoot a full mag with the dominant hand, then the other hand. If there are more malfunctions with the non-dominant hand, I'd focus on grip technique due to limp wristing.

And, of course, make sure she isn't touching the slide or slide stop with either a thumb or palm as the pistol cycles and moved in her hand.

Just a few ideas for ya.
Click to expand...
Almost new by Glock standards...< 1000 rds. Failures are failures to eject (almost 100%).
 
.38 Special said:
Agreed with pretty much everyone. Essentially, she is absorbing too much of the energy which the gun needs in order to cycle. The solution is for her to stop doing that - which of course is more easily said than done. A workaround can be a lighter spring, but that's not foolproof and not a perfect solution.

For my money, unless she's really dedicated to working out, she needs a different gun for self defense.
Click to expand...
Right...that's why I'm sending my little Ruger 9mm w/ her for now.
 
20 years ago my sister had no problem shooting the Glock 19 she carried, but when she started having jams from limp wristing, (bad arthritis for her age) she went to J-frame revolvers for about 15 years. Her 442 got to be too much, then the 642 she traded it for. She got a Glock 44 when they came out, and has been carrying that. Yes, I know rimfires are not ideal carry guns, but it's better than being unarmed.
 
Let's say it's a nine year-old female- family member with careful, adult supervision. I would choose a 1911 45ACP single stack over a 1911 45ACP w/ staggered mag. Point being, a better fit in the hand. Find a handgun that works for this 20 year-old as she demonstrates proper technique.

Terminology for the new guys:
RSA = recoil spring assembly.
 
Last edited:
I've had a few guns that "limp wristed" unless held at what I consider an excessively rigid way. They have all been polymer guns and 1911's. If they didn't ease up after a break in, they were gone, simple as that. I have some that I can hold with 2 fingers and get 100% function. The one in my avatar is one of them. Kids and older women have shot it and it's near twin the Mossad and had zero problems. The smaller CZ clones have to be held fairly tightly, but nothing like one of my short time owned guns, the VP-70Z, which was just an awful gun, both in looks and trigger. IF you held it really tightly, it was reliable, but that trigger,wow.
 
It pretty easy to see whos likely to have the problem. And its usually those who have no or little experience, and may show a little fear of whats going on.

We've all seen people like that shooting. They are the ones who lean back, away from the gun, shoulders over their heels, and their arms are loose, or at least, not rigid. You see it with rifle shooters too, same stance, shoulders back, head back on the stock, instead of a more aggressive forward stace with the head down on the stock with a good cheek weld, and forward on the stock towards the reciever.

99% of the time, if you explain to them that they want to try and be a bit more aggressive in their stance, in something like your typical "fighters stance", with your feet about shoulder width apart, and your weight over the balls of your feet, and with a handgun, your shoulders about the same place, or even a little more forward.

The most important thing is, dont let your arms and gun come back with the gun in recoil. You dont have to use a lot of effort or force, just dont let the gun move rearward with the recoil. Thats what causes the problem. A proper stance basically eliminates that, but positive reinforcement is a big help too.

One of the first things I do with a shooter that hasnt shot a handgun before, or is shooting a different type, is to go over things with them, and then taking their time, have them fire a mag into the berm or whatever, without trying to sight the gun. Just basically relax, get in a decent stance, and fire the gun, so they can see and feel what the gun is doing and they can know what to expect from it, and the fear about the gun goes away, and they can then concentrate on actually shooting the gun, and not worrying about it.
 
JTQ said:
There are a lot of legitimate cases of limp wristing




However, cheap, underpowered 115gr ball ammo seems to be a legitimate factor in a lot of malfunctions with 9mm pistols these days.

Across several forums, you'll get folks with the "a quality gun should be able to shoot any crummy ammo" comments. However, I think the ammo makers have gotten cheap and sloppy over the past several years, and guns designed to shoot NATO level ball and personal defense hollow point ammo in the +P range can have problems with cheap/lightweight/low powered ammo, especially with fresh recoil springs.
Click to expand...

I have seen more issues with underpowered 115Gr ammo marketed as training or reduced recoil in the last two years with brand new factory pistols and home built pistols (Polymer 80 type). I have even had an issue myself with a P80 940C build (G17 slide with G19 grip). My reloads worked great in everything from my 9mm 1911 down to my Kel-Tec PF9 but they would not fully cycle my 940C build. My reloads were meant for reduced recoil. I upped the powder charge by 2 tenths of a grain and the problems went away.

For the OP, I suggest two things. First use better quality ammo instead of the cheap training/range ammo. Second, make sure she is not limp wristing the pistol.
 
My daughter was home from college for a few days last weekend. She's 6'1". Her hands and arms and shoulders are very strong, because she plays a double bass for hours every day.

We didn't go to the range this time, but sometimes we do. She's been shooting since she was eight and is comfortable with firearms. She doesn't love recoil, but she's very comfortable with 38 special or 9mm or anything lighter.

She has a superpower of being able to make semiautomatic pistols jam. I don't know how she does it, but if she puts a few mags through one of my semiautos, it's gonna jam at least once. Even my most reliable ones. I have no idea what the deal is. It's obviously not that her hands are too small or weak.

NBD. She can have her pick of my revolvers when she gets her own place. I got this one with her in mind, but she can have something else if she wants.

Smith and Wesson Model 64-5 38 special

Smith and Wesson Model 64-5 38 special

 
I'm of the belief that a defensive pistol needs to be one you can fire one handed, lefty or righty, and not experience malfunctions. For many people, especially those who do not train, this is gonna preclude a lot of the lightweight poly framed & striker fired automatics.

Whether one likes the term or not, limp wristing will induce malfunctions in many autoloading handguns. Some do have enough mass in the frames to still cycle with a floppy hold, but that's generally gonna be full sized all steel guns.

For your daughter, training with her pistol is an obvious must, but if it requires too much focus for her to make it run right - focus that won't be available in a high stress situation - then she needs to consider other options. Revolvers, of course, are not functionally affected by grip. But many people just find the ergonomics disagreeable. If she has to have a compact automatic, probably want to be looking at guns like the CZ 75 compact or Tanfoglio steel frame compact.
 
Last edited:
trackskippy said:
One of the first things I do with a shooter that hasnt shot a handgun before, or is shooting a different type, is to go over things with them, and then taking their time, have them fire a mag into the berm or whatever, without trying to sight the gun. Just basically relax, get in a decent stance, and fire the gun, so they can see and feel what the gun is doing and they can know what to expect from it, and the fear about the gun goes away, and they can then concentrate on actually shooting the gun, and not worrying about it.
Click to expand...

Good suggestion.
 
Amen to MachIV
I have thus far avoided gunfights but even the varying target presentations and competition stress of IDPA and USPSA show me that you cannot rely on getting a perfect grip and solid stance in a hurry with the situation, not technique, foremost in your mind.
I had a malfunction yesterday and while I cleared it and resumed shooting, it was a stage-killing loss of time.
Technique? Gun? Magazine? (I did not isolate the magazine for examination, that was an error.) Ammo? I don't know, but I will check it all out before the next match.
 
Limp wristing, is simple physics, as described above by @MachIVshooter. The slide needs to have it's momentum during recoil opposed by a shooters grip or mass in the frame for it to be able to combat the weight of the slide that wants to stay still and the recoil spring's strength opposing the push back force of the cartridge firing.

Friction of all the internal components would also play a role, a new recoil spring, unburnished slide rails, etc all play a minor role as well.

All of this can be overcome by anyone willing to put in the time to have correct grip and/or strengthening one's grip with exercises. Movement in the pistol in one's hand or the hand and firearm moving backwards under recoil is cumulative towards inhibiting the slide from having enough resistance below it to properly function.

But a properly fitting handgun to the shooter is the best place to start, if her hands are too small for the Glock 19 grip then it will just take that much more training and strength in her hands to overcome her hand size. Such was my suggestion earlier to consider a G43x/48 if she wants to stay with Glock or other brands of similar size. She can now get a G19 capacity in the form of a 43x/48 with a smaller easier to grip frame for people with smaller hands by utilizing the Shield Arms magazines.
 
What @trackskippy said in post #25.

There's more to the grip than just strictly the grip. A semiautomatic pistol has moving parts whose function is dependent upon momentum and inertia. None of the parts which cycle to eject and chamber a round are truly "independent" of each other and this means that what affects one part (such as the slide) also affects other parts (such as the frame) and vice-versa. And as much as the pistol itself is a machine, so too is the person who is holding the pistol.

A person's "grip" is only one portion of the biological machine that makes up the entire structure which holds and manipulates the pistol. Everything about that biological machine can (and does) affect the operation of that pistol and its accuracy. Breathing affects it. Heartbeat affects it. Stance affects it. Joint design and operation affects it. Muscle strength affects it. You name it.

Since this gun only seems to have these issues when she is shooting it, then there is SOMETHING about how she shoots that gun that is causing this. It could be any number of things and you'll have to figure out how to narrow it down. Watch her shoot with an exceptionally critical eye. And if you don't spot anything, then CHANGE something about how she shoots to see if it affects this. For example, if she's shooting while standing up, have her sit down and do some "bench rest" shooting with her arms braced solidly on some form of bench rest to hold her aim, position, grip, stance steady in a different position.
 
As pretty much everyone else has said, at some point she's limp wristing it (limp grip whatever). She needs to always grip the gun like she's giving a firm handshake, she doesn't have to sqeeze it to death, but just a firm handshake. If it works fine for you then the problem is with her technique. Someone also mentioned it, but the G43X/G48 have the same grip length but are slimmer and possibly better for small hands, but the gun will also recoil a bit more.
 
rkittine said:
I am 6'1" and 185 and had some issues with my new Glock like this. Instructor at the range helped me change the grips on the gun and my grip of the gun and then functioned as normal.
Click to expand...

@rkittine, I wonder if you fall into the below? Good that the instructor helped you get it sorted out.

There have been a lot of revolver shooters that grew up shooting revolvers with the idea of letting the revolver recoil upwards but in a controlled manner. This along with a common revolver grip is for the support hand thumb to overlap the thumb of the shooting hand. Revolver shooters due to the way revolvers are designed generally tend to grip a semi-auto lower on the grip as well, I've noticed.

All of the above is a problem when trying to shoot semi-autos. Not to mention slide bite with the latter. Letting a semi-auto recoil or losing the support hands thumb to control recoil and provide good resistance for the slide to operate against, can create problems with operation. And a low grip on a semi-auto exacerbates the recoil movement in ones hand as well, thus diminishing the mass/force pushing opposite the slide's recoiling direction.

So a person with "greater earthly experience" i.e. older might seem like he/she doesn't know how to handle a firearm switching to a semi-auto is not the case, they just are doing what was ingrained in their shooting history of using revolvers.

I've seen this and corrected it, and generally it's older individuals that have shooting experience just not with something that relies on specifics of handling to get the firearm to function correctly.
 
Hikingman said:
Let's say it's a nine year-old female- family member with careful, adult supervision. I would choose a 1911 45ACP single stack over a 1911 45ACP w/ staggered mag. Point being, a better fit in the hand. Find a handgun that works for this 20 year-old as she demonstrates proper technique.

Terminology for the new guys:
RSA = recoil spring assembly.
Click to expand...
You're right. Really, she has her pick of what we have and has shot all of them at some point..she wanted the Glock for this role and I let her . She loves (we all do) our family heirloom Colt 1903 pocket and while .32ACP is a bit underpowered I thought she might go for a CZ 50 and bought one. Great, rugged little vintage Euro police auto...she shot it great. But she wanted the Glock...(!) Well, I got her on my single stack Ruger LC9s and she shoots that just fine, too. So until she gets more time to practice and get some (better than me) coaching, that Ruger will do fine. Hell, I may start carrying that little CZ(!)
 
Jim Watson said:
Amen to MachIV
I have thus far avoided gunfights but even the varying target presentations and competition stress of IDPA and USPSA show me that you cannot rely on getting a perfect grip and solid stance in a hurry with the situation, not technique, foremost in your mind.
I had a malfunction yesterday and while I cleared it and resumed shooting, it was a stage-killing loss of time.
Technique? Gun? Magazine? (I did not isolate the magazine for examination, that was an error.) Ammo? I don't know, but I will check it all out before the next match.
Click to expand...
For reasons above^ the little Ruger will go with to school for now...100% reliable so far no matter how she has gripped it/shot it. The chance, however remote, of her trying to clear a malfunction with that Glock gives me pause.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
  • Locked
Does the Glock 19 Gen 5 have the "glock hump" in rear?
Replies
10
Views
1K
gunsrfun1
G
B
  • Locked
Glock 19 gen3 problem
Replies
5
Views
1K
entropy
entropy
G
  • Locked
Brand New Glock 19 Gen 4 Jams!
Replies
18
Views
5K
GlockSmith
G
M
  • Locked
S&W M&P 9C vs 4th Gen Glock 19 9mm for CCW?
2
Replies
25
Views
7K
MJD
M
P
  • Locked
Glock 21 Gen 4 Overview and Shooting Demo (HD VIDEO)
Replies
2
Views
311
PTMCCAIN
P
Back
Top