Why doesn't Ruger or somebody make a 9mm w/ fixed barrel like a Mark II?

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The 9mm is too powerful to be practical in a fixed barrel gun as this usually means blow back action or rotating bolt guns.

Beretta comes closest with both its 92/96 series with their falling locking blocks rather than the tilting barrel of the 1911, SIG, Glock, etc.

I believe that Beretta's cougar series uses a rotating barrel similar to the Colt (2000 all American I may be wrong with this designation the gun came in two forms one with a polymer frame the other with aluminum).

In both of these systems the barrel remains in the same plain even if not firmly fixed to the frame such as a Walther ppK.
 
Because a weapon that operates with the recoil and pressure of a 9mm generally needs something more complicated than a simple blowback action (like the MkII's) to function correctly. (Unless you want to make it really heavy.)

There are lots of designs for fixed barrel 9mms (or larger calibers), but because they are generally misunderstood and rarely seen by most shooters, they have received very little development outside of a few daring companies.

95% of all modern pistols 9mm and up have recoil actions loosely based on either one Browning or one Walther design. There are lots of way to skin a cat, but these are the only two anyone really bothers with.

If you want a cheap fixed barrel 9mm, look for a Benelli B76. The combat models can be had for $400 used. Other designs include the HK P9S, VP70 and P7, Steyr GB, Heritage Arms and the recalled Vector CP-1. The good ones all command high prices due to their rarity, quality and collectibility.
 
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll have to check them out. What about the Luger pistol? Does anyone still make them? The recoil operation doesn't seem significantly different than a Mark II and it definately has the look. Alot of people think the Mark II's look like Lugers.

I really like the idea of having the sights on the barrel. Greater accuracy and all. I've had way too many autoloaders with crooked lockup.
 
Handy, you stole the gun recommendation right out of my mouth! The B-76 is a remarkably accurate gun, at least the example in my safe is. Somewhat finnicky about ammo it's fed, but otherwise top drawer.

Did you see that CDNN has mags for CHEAP? I had two imported from Italy years ago for $70 each! Doh!

Larry
 
Yeah DT,

I've been monitoring the Benelli for awhile. It's system is supposed to be quite unique. You should buy some of those mags, it could be a great boost if you should ever choose to sell.

It's nice to know they are as accurate as I've suspected. I've toyed with the idea of getting one of Target models I've seen on the net. But I just bought a GB instead.
 
Handy,

I'm pretty, um, set for mags (whoa, wife alert!)..

My Benelli is good for an inch or an inch and a quarter at 25 yards with ammo it likes. Only prob is that it really prefers FMJs-HPs are generally a no-go.

If you can live with the FMJ thing, it's a GREAT gun. All hard-chromed internals and an exquisite locking action.

I've only seen the target in .32-a 9mm would be a real tempter.

Lary
 
No problem at all, I only shoot 9mm NATO FMJ :cool:

But if it chokes on hollowpoints, how reliable of a gun do you think it is?

Are they single action autos?
 
I posted a while back that I thought a MK II in .380 would be neat. It could be made in a blowback action just like the standard MKII.

There have been 9mm guns with blowback designs, but the recoil spring is very stiff. Astra made one. Model 600 I think.

The Luger design uses a toggle link for it's mechanism. Very complicated compared to the MK II which is just a simple blowback design. They are similar in outward appearance though. Both classics.

I would buy a MK II in .380, but then again I like weird guns.
 
I'd like a gun like this too. I've been thinking along the lines of a pistol that is externally similar to the Ruger with a roller locking action like the P9. It could be adapted to the new PDW rounds used in the FN P90 and HK MP7, so it might attract police/military sales. Another bonus would be that you could have a bull barrel version with integral suppressor like you see with the Ruger .22's. The suppressed version would have the advantage of not requiring a recoil booster like the Browning locking method does and it wouldn't have any of the problems that can occur in suppressed weapons with moving barrels.
 
The Benelli is FMJ only mainly because of the grip angle-very acute, like a Luger, sort of. Steep feed angle, and I haven't seen anything that could be done about it.

It's a military design, which is why HPs didn't figure into the design.

DA/SA, AND cocked and locked.

Larry
 
Don't subguns have fixed barrels and operate on blowback?

Aren't some subguns quite small?(mini uzi, mac's etc)

And aren't fixed barrel 9mm's out there already?

What is the name of the ugly ones that have a fixed barrel .45 that is cheap reliable and accurate? I forget. Oh wait it's a Hi Point right?

If you used a markII target with the a 6 inch bull barrel or better and a steel frame and put a really heavy spring behind the bolt it should work right?

I think it could be done. And it would be cool.

-bevr
 
For a blowback to work, it needs both a stong recoil spring AND a massive bolt (hence the enormous slide on the hipoint).

Even the Micro Uzi is huge and heavy compared to a big pistol. Mac-10s have a bolt full of lead.

A Mk2 has a tiny, light bolt. If you just upped the spring pressure with a light bolt, the bolt velocity and cycle time would be out of this world and the gun wouldn't feed, or work very long.

The Astra and VP70 seemed to do the blowback thing without too massive a slide, but it's a fine balance.
 
the smallest pure blowback in 9mm, that worked, had to be the detonics "pocket 9"...don johnson wore it on his ankle during the last season of "miami vice"

not a blowback, but is mitchell arms still making the stainless steel "luger"?
 
Of course redesigning the bolt would be in order among other things. I don't know if you have seen the spring in a mk2 but they look like it came out of a bic pen or something. I don't think it would be practical to "convert" a mk2 but I think some of the basic design principles could be incorperated into a new gun.

I just think that the right engineer could make it work.

When you say "massive" what do you mean exactly? Big, heavy, Big and heavy? Dense? And why would that neccesarily be the case?

Did the broomhandle mausers have a really big bolt/slide? and about the Nambu's were they fixed barrels? and did they have really massive bolts and slides?

I should know these things, probably will someday.

-bevr
 
Did the broomhandle mausers have a really big bolt/slide? and about the Nambu's were they fixed barrels? and did they have really massive bolts and slides?
Click to expand...

Broomhandles are recoil-operated, as are the Nambus, IIRC.
 
Bevr,

Ditto what Frodo said.

When I said massive, I meant containing much mass, or being heavy.

If you aren't going to use some sort of lock or delay, mass and spring pressure are the only things containing the pressure. Spring pressure with little mass would either fail to cycle or cycle with incredible speed.

You have to have a lock, delay or sufficient mass. Period.



PS The Detonics Pocket 9 was a delayed blowback. The chamber had annular grooves that the brass expanded into, creating a friction delay.
 
Handy, you're not alone, but there's a quote along the lines of "There are none so blind as those who will not see". IMO the only thing that would convince most of those folks is John Browning coming and telling them that fixed barrels are better. Even if that happened I think some of them would suddenly decide John Browning was an idiot.
 
WonderNine, I think you misunderstand. His post was refering to a discussion were it seemed he was the only one who WAS open minded about non standard designs.

Handy, you mentioned the chamber grooves in the Detonics design, and the Russians have something similar in a Makarov redesigned to use 9x19. Do you think something like that could be made to work with this idea? I don't know if the grooves alone would be enough considering the bolt of such a design would not have mass comparable to a full length slide. Perhaps the bolt could be made of tungsten to make up for the weight difference?
 
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