Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why doesn't Ruger or somebody make a 9mm w/ fixed barrel like a Mark II?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by WonderNine, Apr 1, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,331
    Location:
    always offline!
    That would be awesome, a single stack slim 9 or 10 shot with a fixed barrel 6" or whatever how come there is no :love: smily :D
     
  2. Mr. Purple

    Mr. Purple member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2003
    Messages:
    32
    The 9mm is too powerful to be practical in a fixed barrel gun as this usually means blow back action or rotating bolt guns.

    Beretta comes closest with both its 92/96 series with their falling locking blocks rather than the tilting barrel of the 1911, SIG, Glock, etc.

    I believe that Beretta's cougar series uses a rotating barrel similar to the Colt (2000 all American I may be wrong with this designation the gun came in two forms one with a polymer frame the other with aluminum).

    In both of these systems the barrel remains in the same plain even if not firmly fixed to the frame such as a Walther ppK.
     
  3. Handy

    Handy Guest

    Because a weapon that operates with the recoil and pressure of a 9mm generally needs something more complicated than a simple blowback action (like the MkII's) to function correctly. (Unless you want to make it really heavy.)

    There are lots of designs for fixed barrel 9mms (or larger calibers), but because they are generally misunderstood and rarely seen by most shooters, they have received very little development outside of a few daring companies.

    95% of all modern pistols 9mm and up have recoil actions loosely based on either one Browning or one Walther design. There are lots of way to skin a cat, but these are the only two anyone really bothers with.

    If you want a cheap fixed barrel 9mm, look for a Benelli B76. The combat models can be had for $400 used. Other designs include the HK P9S, VP70 and P7, Steyr GB, Heritage Arms and the recalled Vector CP-1. The good ones all command high prices due to their rarity, quality and collectibility.
     
  4. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,331
    Location:
    always offline!
    Thanks for the recommendations, I'll have to check them out. What about the Luger pistol? Does anyone still make them? The recoil operation doesn't seem significantly different than a Mark II and it definately has the look. Alot of people think the Mark II's look like Lugers.

    I really like the idea of having the sights on the barrel. Greater accuracy and all. I've had way too many autoloaders with crooked lockup.
     
  5. 10-Ring

    10-Ring Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    12,037
    Location:
    California
    My P7M8 has a fixed barrel ;) And I really like it alot :cool:
     
  6. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,172
    Handy, you stole the gun recommendation right out of my mouth! The B-76 is a remarkably accurate gun, at least the example in my safe is. Somewhat finnicky about ammo it's fed, but otherwise top drawer.

    Did you see that CDNN has mags for CHEAP? I had two imported from Italy years ago for $70 each! Doh!

    Larry
     
  7. Handy

    Handy Guest

    Yeah DT,

    I've been monitoring the Benelli for awhile. It's system is supposed to be quite unique. You should buy some of those mags, it could be a great boost if you should ever choose to sell.

    It's nice to know they are as accurate as I've suspected. I've toyed with the idea of getting one of Target models I've seen on the net. But I just bought a GB instead.
     
  8. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,172
    Handy,

    I'm pretty, um, set for mags (whoa, wife alert!)..

    My Benelli is good for an inch or an inch and a quarter at 25 yards with ammo it likes. Only prob is that it really prefers FMJs-HPs are generally a no-go.

    If you can live with the FMJ thing, it's a GREAT gun. All hard-chromed internals and an exquisite locking action.

    I've only seen the target in .32-a 9mm would be a real tempter.

    Lary
     
  9. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,331
    Location:
    always offline!
    No problem at all, I only shoot 9mm NATO FMJ :cool:

    But if it chokes on hollowpoints, how reliable of a gun do you think it is?

    Are they single action autos?
     
  10. Handy

    Handy Guest

  11. makarov

    makarov Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    336
    I posted a while back that I thought a MK II in .380 would be neat. It could be made in a blowback action just like the standard MKII.

    There have been 9mm guns with blowback designs, but the recoil spring is very stiff. Astra made one. Model 600 I think.

    The Luger design uses a toggle link for it's mechanism. Very complicated compared to the MK II which is just a simple blowback design. They are similar in outward appearance though. Both classics.

    I would buy a MK II in .380, but then again I like weird guns.
     
  12. Triad

    Triad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    Texas
    I'd like a gun like this too. I've been thinking along the lines of a pistol that is externally similar to the Ruger with a roller locking action like the P9. It could be adapted to the new PDW rounds used in the FN P90 and HK MP7, so it might attract police/military sales. Another bonus would be that you could have a bull barrel version with integral suppressor like you see with the Ruger .22's. The suppressed version would have the advantage of not requiring a recoil booster like the Browning locking method does and it wouldn't have any of the problems that can occur in suppressed weapons with moving barrels.
     
  13. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,172
    The Benelli is FMJ only mainly because of the grip angle-very acute, like a Luger, sort of. Steep feed angle, and I haven't seen anything that could be done about it.

    It's a military design, which is why HPs didn't figure into the design.

    DA/SA, AND cocked and locked.

    Larry
     
  14. BevrFevr

    BevrFevr Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    Close to the bone
    Don't subguns have fixed barrels and operate on blowback?

    Aren't some subguns quite small?(mini uzi, mac's etc)

    And aren't fixed barrel 9mm's out there already?

    What is the name of the ugly ones that have a fixed barrel .45 that is cheap reliable and accurate? I forget. Oh wait it's a Hi Point right?

    If you used a markII target with the a 6 inch bull barrel or better and a steel frame and put a really heavy spring behind the bolt it should work right?

    I think it could be done. And it would be cool.

    -bevr
     
  15. Handy

    Handy Guest

    For a blowback to work, it needs both a stong recoil spring AND a massive bolt (hence the enormous slide on the hipoint).

    Even the Micro Uzi is huge and heavy compared to a big pistol. Mac-10s have a bolt full of lead.

    A Mk2 has a tiny, light bolt. If you just upped the spring pressure with a light bolt, the bolt velocity and cycle time would be out of this world and the gun wouldn't feed, or work very long.

    The Astra and VP70 seemed to do the blowback thing without too massive a slide, but it's a fine balance.
     
  16. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,498
    Location:
    northern california
    the smallest pure blowback in 9mm, that worked, had to be the detonics "pocket 9"...don johnson wore it on his ankle during the last season of "miami vice"

    not a blowback, but is mitchell arms still making the stainless steel "luger"?
     
  17. BevrFevr

    BevrFevr Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    Close to the bone
    Of course redesigning the bolt would be in order among other things. I don't know if you have seen the spring in a mk2 but they look like it came out of a bic pen or something. I don't think it would be practical to "convert" a mk2 but I think some of the basic design principles could be incorperated into a new gun.

    I just think that the right engineer could make it work.

    When you say "massive" what do you mean exactly? Big, heavy, Big and heavy? Dense? And why would that neccesarily be the case?

    Did the broomhandle mausers have a really big bolt/slide? and about the Nambu's were they fixed barrels? and did they have really massive bolts and slides?

    I should know these things, probably will someday.

    -bevr
     
  18. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    6,887
    Location:
    Plymouth Meeting, PA
    Broomhandles are recoil-operated, as are the Nambus, IIRC.
     
  19. Handy

    Handy Guest

    Bevr,

    Ditto what Frodo said.

    When I said massive, I meant containing much mass, or being heavy.

    If you aren't going to use some sort of lock or delay, mass and spring pressure are the only things containing the pressure. Spring pressure with little mass would either fail to cycle or cycle with incredible speed.

    You have to have a lock, delay or sufficient mass. Period.



    PS The Detonics Pocket 9 was a delayed blowback. The chamber had annular grooves that the brass expanded into, creating a friction delay.
     
  20. makdaddy03

    makdaddy03 member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Messages:
    638
    I want 1 too.:D
     
  21. Handy

    Handy Guest

  22. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,331
    Location:
    always offline!
  23. Triad

    Triad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    Texas
    Handy, you're not alone, but there's a quote along the lines of "There are none so blind as those who will not see". IMO the only thing that would convince most of those folks is John Browning coming and telling them that fixed barrels are better. Even if that happened I think some of them would suddenly decide John Browning was an idiot.
     
  24. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,331
    Location:
    always offline!
    Was that posted response to me or Handy? I'm assuming you made a mistake?
     
  25. Triad

    Triad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    Texas
    WonderNine, I think you misunderstand. His post was refering to a discussion were it seemed he was the only one who WAS open minded about non standard designs.

    Handy, you mentioned the chamber grooves in the Detonics design, and the Russians have something similar in a Makarov redesigned to use 9x19. Do you think something like that could be made to work with this idea? I don't know if the grooves alone would be enough considering the bolt of such a design would not have mass comparable to a full length slide. Perhaps the bolt could be made of tungsten to make up for the weight difference?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page