Why doesn't Ruger or somebody make a 9mm w/ fixed barrel like a Mark II?

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Ok, I wasn't sure what you were saying. I actually read that post a couple of weeks back amazingly just as I was getting extremely irritated with with all the semi-autos I've shot that had crooked lockups.

I'm just extremely tired and annoyed with all of the shooters that claim to have 1 & 1/2 groups at 25 - 30 yards with their perfect 1911's and Browning Hi-Powers, when all the examples I've owned won't hit the target at 15 while I can deadeye with revolvers at 25.
 
I'm just extremely tired and annoyed with all of the shooters that claim to have 1 & 1/2 groups at 25 - 30 yards with their perfect 1911's and Browning Hi-Powers, when all the examples I've owned won't hit the target at 15 while I can deadeye with revolvers at 25.

Wondernine,

Don't feel bad. You're just a natural revolver shooter. Just because you can shoot a wheelie with proficiency and you can't hit crap with a semi (with Browning-style lockup), doesn't mean that the auto was inaccurate or the owner was full of crap. It just means you suck with most autos and you rock with a wheelgun...JMO.
 
Triad,

I think the grooved chamber is a poor way to do business. It relies to heavily on the ductility of the brass casing to function. If it doesn't function, your beating the gun to death.

A think mechanical leverage or gas delay are the best methods. But I thing that there may be a decent way to get a Lahti/Luger/Broomhandle design to work efficiently and reliably.
 
of course fixed barrel 9mm-s are superior!!
...........that's way God invented the P7

which btw has nothing 'huge' or 'clunky' even though it is blowback operated
 
with the exception of the P7M10...whose slide is both huge and clunky.

it is a example of a balanced 9mm design upgraded to the .40 and the mass needed to deal with the additional recoil/pressure
 
Handy,

I see your point about blowback operated bolts. I wonder though if a recoil operated bolt/slide could not be implemented in a mk2 "like" pistol.

Actually I'm seein it in my minds eye. Make the reciever (already heavy) into a slide(like a buckmark or S&w). Have the slide run on rails that extend back from the bull barrel.

I'm seeing it. Now some bastard will get rich with my idea.

Same ol Same ol.

-bevr
 
Bevr,

What you just described is how a Mauser Broomhandle works.

It's essentially a packaging problem, because whatever locks the slide and barrel together ends up doing it behind the chamber, rather than in front like other recoil guns. That is why a Luger has that goofy toggle action and a verticle recoil spring, and the Mauser has a front mag.

I'm sure an elegant solution exists, but no one is currently looking.
 
Well, a Luger sort of looks like a blow-back but it's not. Lugers are also ammunition finicky and even Federal FMFJ might bind up on the feed ramp of a Luger.

They are neat peices but there are far better designs to skin this cat. The P7 has a fixed barrel and it achives success by bleeding gas, heating the trigger guard, and requiring more metal.

I agree it would be neat to see a large caliber SA pistol set up sort of like the lines of a mark 2 (ala Automag) who would buy it? maybe that's the cool way to make a 10 shot 7.62x25 pistol.
 
Blowback physics (LONG)

This is an interesting thread, but I think some of you don't understand what the limitations are on creating blowback operated weapons.

Blowback guns are designed using Sir Isaac Newton's law of Conservation of Momentum. Stated simply, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Thus, the bullet weighing "X" grains, moving down the barrel a "Y" feet per second translates into a slide/bolt (weighing "A" grains) moving rearward at "B" feet per second. The following math must apply: "X" times "Y" must equal "A" times "B"

Now for .22 LR, the 42 gr. bullet at 1100fps must be balance by a slide weighing 1000 grains (estimated for Ruger Mark II?) at 4.2 fps.

One can see that, as the weight goes up for the bullet (assuming bullet speed is held constant), then either the slide must get heavier, or the slide speed will start getting pretty high pretty fast. Once the slide speed gets high enough, the breach mechanism is opening up before the chamber pressure has dropped enough, and case rupture starts to occur.

The solution here, of course, is to increase the slide/bolt mass to compensate. The problem, of course, comes when the bullet gets really fast and/or really heavy. To illustrate this point, back in the 1920's, Ordnance Corps Major Julian Hatcher calculated that a blowback arm chambered for .30/06 would need a 23 POUND breachblock to function safely. That sort of makes the whole issue of portablility problematic.

So, designers seek alternative solutions to avoid the weight penalty. If they are desperate to keep the barrel fixed (and avoid locked breach solutions), then the need to retard the blowback somehow. Heavy springs work, to a point, as is the case with the Astra 600. Gas retardation works well, as the P7 has shown. Retarded blowback, like the P9S, works, at the price of breachblock complexity. Grooving the chamber works, assuming you can control the ductility of the brass carefully. (This has proven to be a problem for military arms that use ammo from all kinds of sources.)

The key here is that WEIGHT becomes the driving limit as to why blowback is not used in many arms with power levels higher than 9x18 Makarov.

PS>>>using subguns as a comparison as to why blowback works for larger cartridges like 9x19 and .45ACP is not very valid. Most subguns weigh in excess of 7 pounds, which is far greater than any true handgun, which almost always weighs less than 3 pounds.
 
Before we get hung up on the fixed bbl designs....

WITH A TWO PLANE SIGHTING SYSTEM WHAT MATTERS THE MOST IS HOW YOUR SIGHTS ARE MOUNTED.

That's assuming that you have already maxed out the standard ingredients for accuracy (trigger, ammo, bbl, etc.). That leaves you with sight placement, you want FRONT and REAR sights ON THE BBL. As far as combat type guns go, you are talking DA revolvers, where for all practical purposes this is the case.

Could be done easily on Beretta 92 or P-38 for example. Couple of ways to do it depending on how much sight radius you want (and you want maximum available).

Problem is, combat guns have to be tough, reliable, and easy to disassemble which kinda leaves little room for playing with sight configs.
 
glockgazda,

The Mausers, Lugers, Lahtis and Nambus mentioned all have sites fixed to the barrel, and the barrel is not fixed. A P-38 is the next closest thing.

Fixed barrel guns tend to be accurate because the slide (and attached sighting plane) have every reason to recenter on the barrel reliably, since there is not camming action inhibiting that.

A Luger or similar are probably the most accurate simple design, since the sights really are all attached to the barrel.


I've considered buying a cheap Walther P1 and building a sight bridge that clamps around the barrel and extends aft to the hammer. I imagine the results would also be phenomenal accuracy.
 
9mm fixed barrel options.

Hi all, I'm reviving an old thread. Please let me know if this is not proper etiquette on this forum.

I want the most accurate 9mm that can be had for less than $750 ($500-650 leaves more for ammo).

I want a gun that, with the right ammo and in a rest, can shoot 2 inch groups at 50m (or come as close to that as I can given my price, a Sig P210 would be great!). I think I have a better chance at that with fixed barrel guns, but I'm open to others.

Any other fixed barrel guns to suggest? Anyone have anymore info on the the B76 (links, PDF manual, etc)? Any others?

I know this theme gets beaten to death, and I apologize for that.

Thanks,

J
 
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Look into the Sig P226 and CZ75... not fixed barrels, but some are capable of 2-inch groups with the right ammo IIRC. I think my 226 might do it with someone else shooting. :D
 
I’ll piggy back on here, does anyone make threaded (or extended unthreaded barrels) For the handfull of fixed barrel 9s?

I’ve looked extensivly but it seems like a big no, unless you want custom work.:banghead:
 
Benelli B76

I can only add to and agree that the B76 is an extremely accurate pistol. I love shooting mine. Its much more accurate than I am.
I just wonder if anyone has tried CorBon Powerball ammo to solve the feeding problem for defense ammo?
 
BevrFevr said:
When you say "massive" what do you mean exactly? Big, heavy, Big and heavy? Dense? And why would that neccesarily be the case?

Uzi bolts are in the neighborhood of 1.5 POUNDS. I imagine most other blowback 9mm bolts are close to the same.

The changes in firing rates from UZI -> MiniUZI -> MicroUZI are due to the change in the recoil distance of the bolt.

The bolt has to be at least a certain weight in order to hold the case in the chamber long enough, and the recoil spring has to be an appropriate strength to cycle the action reliably. The recoil spring has VERY LITTLE effect on how fast the bolt recoils while under pressure, that is a LOT of force being applied by the case and the spring doesn't come anywhere near being able to counteract it significantly.
 
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