Why even have a safe at all? Or just carry insurance?

[Tirod]

While it was assumed a lot of posters here had both a gun safe and insurance, the likelihood might be quite the opposite. Plenty report guns in cases stored in closets, under beds, etc.

First reason is to keep children from playing with them, and some families don't - but it's always supervised and the ammo is kept separate and that is locked up. So it's not always an issue with some to keep them out of the hands of the kids - they get their hands on them (again, supervised) and therefore there's no risk of forbidden fascination.

Second is insurance - sometimes there's not enough discretionary funding to go around. Or the premiums in a few short years cost as much as some of the firearms. So, it's not considered frugal to go to the effort to insure, or that they are worth insuring. Many own commodity guns - they got what was on the market and they would replace them with the same, what's on the market. Nothing all that special. Not grandpa's double he carried as shotgunner on the stagecoach line, just an old bird gun of common make with a lot of wear and tear.

Add it all up, no point to an expensive gun safe that costs and weighs more than the modest few guns you might put in it. Or paying what would buy them all in a few years time to insure.

 

[cdk8]

I've had two insurance dealings involving theft. One I came out alright with, and another I got pretty screwed. The thousands I lost in one incident was enough to buy several safes capable of withstanding even the most sophisticated of tooled attacks. Some family heirlooms of relatives passed were ruined, and some items that had both monetary and sentimental value were taken and never found. At least for me, the process of the whole ordeal was very stressful.

Many gun owners who purchase a gun safe may tend to keep other valuables in it. I do. Numbers can add up fast. This is why it is my opinion that most individuals should purchase a security safe that is built to a known and capable standard (that standard being the ones set by the UL.) For me, it was easy to not realize I packed several locking containers with so many important things because I couldn't have imagined how I would feel if those things were ruined & taken. I felt dirty in the violated kind of way.

I can personally justify the expenditure simply to avoid feeling that way again. I still insure my valuables, but to me insurance is always a known unknown. When I put those valuables inside of a tool resistant safe, I get peace of mind by knowing exactly what that safe can withstand.

Another reason I feel a safe is a good idea for many owners is because I am a strong believer in the values of second-hand products, especially security safes. Quite a few gun owners may not realize that leaving the world of gun safes and entering the world of used security safes presents many budget-conscious options of products that can withstand skilled attack and severe fire. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Jim K]

All good ideas, but the best protection is probably not a tight safe door, but tight lips. Why bother with a safe if you spend your time at the range or gun shop telling the whole world how many guns you have and how much they are worth?

As to locks and bolts, they help only when you are not home. When your family is home, the bad guys just grab your wife or your kid and a big knife and tell you to open the safe. You open the safe.

Jim

 

[grampajack]

It's all a matter of how much money you're willing to spend. Bear safes are the best, and also the most expensive. The fact of the matter, though, is that any halfway decent gun safe is impossible to get into without tools. At the very least, you need a long pry bar or an angle grinder. The angle grinder takes 10-20 minutes, and the pry bar requires that you have enough room to operate. The way my safe is situated, you'd have to take out several walls, a furnace and a hot water heater to get enough leverage to pry it. Bear safes can't be pried open, though, at least not by conventional tools. The only way to get in is with an angle grinder. And once a safe is bolted to the slab, no one is carrying it off under any circumstances. There are plenty of examples of gun safes still bolted to the slab after an F5 tornado.

The simple fact though is that few thieves bring tools, and fewer still bring tools necessary to crack a real gun safe. Maybe one of those sheet metal ones, but those aren't really "gun safes." Even a $600 Winchester safe gives you a really nice level of protection. No, it won't survive every fire or break in, but they tend to survive most.

 

[huntsman]

I've had two insurance dealings involving theft. One I came out alright with, and another I got pretty screwed.

Was it a difference in coverage or companies?

I was shocked at the response I got from my agent when I inquired about coverage, one thinks "replacement" means true replacement but not so in the insurance world. Solution, additional coverage above and beyond what my homeowners will pay.

 

[cdk8]

It's all a matter of how much money you're willing to spend. Bear safes are the best, and also the most expensive. The fact of the matter, though, is that any halfway decent gun safe is impossible to get into without tools. At the very least, you need a long pry bar or an angle grinder. The angle grinder takes 10-20 minutes, and the pry bar requires that you have enough room to operate. The way my safe is situated, you'd have to take out several walls, a furnace and a hot water heater to get enough leverage to pry it. Bear safes can't be pried open, though, at least not by conventional tools. The only way to get in is with an angle grinder. And once a safe is bolted to the slab, no one is carrying it off under any circumstances. There are plenty of examples of gun safes still bolted to the slab after an F5 tornado.

The simple fact though is that few thieves bring tools, and fewer still bring tools necessary to crack a real gun safe. Maybe one of those sheet metal ones, but those aren't really "gun safes." Even a $600 Winchester safe gives you a really nice level of protection. No, it won't survive every fire or break in, but they tend to survive most.

Isn't Bear like Sturdy Safe, where they start off with a base 3/16-inch body or something like that, and will build all the way up to a half inch body? If so, it's worth pointing out that they are an exception to the rule because most gun safes have almost ridiculously thin armor.

A nickel is about .075 inches thick. Most gun safes have side plates from about .05 to .13 inches . A portable grinder attack could potentially kill an average gun safe in under a minute. Even against a fire axe or sledge attack, the average gun safe may give several minutes of protection, at best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FycV7PdcB4g

 

[grampajack]

Isn't Bear like Sturdy Safe, where they start off with a base 3/16-inch body or something like that, and will build all the way up to a half inch body? If so, it's worth pointing out that they are an exception to the rule because most gun safes have almost ridiculously thin armor.

A nickel is about .075 inches thick. Most gun safes have side plates from about .05 to .13 inches . A portable grinder attack could potentially kill an average gun safe in under a minute. Even against a fire axe or sledge attack, the average gun safe may give several minutes of protection, at best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FycV7PdcB4g

I've heard that a good safe takes 10-20 minutes to break into with a grinder. I don't know if that's true or not.

I don't know how thick the walls are on Bear safes, but I know they sure are heavy! To get a safe that nice in another brand you'd probably spend some pretty big bucks. I've been to their factory and seen their torture tests, and you're not getting in one without a grinder or torch. And it would have to be a pretty bad fire to defeat one.

The point I was trying to make though is that all gun safes require certain tools to break into. You can't pop one open with a small crowbar, you can't drill the locks, you can't use a hacksaw, etc. The thief would either have to bring his own tools, which means he already knew you had guns and a safe, or use your tools. And that takes time and creates a lot of noise. Smash and grab drug seekers don't plan ahead (if they had an angle grinder they would pawn it for drug money), and professional burglars don't like to be in a house for that long or make that much noise. They like easily accessible electronics.

Bottom line, yes, it's very much worth it to have a gun safe. No gun safe will protect you in every situation, but most of them will protect you most of the time.

 

[cdk8]

I've heard that a good safe takes 10-20 minutes to break into with a grinder. I don't know if that's true or not.

I don't know how thick the walls are on Bear safes, but I know they sure are heavy! To get a safe that nice in another brand you'd probably spend some pretty big bucks. I've been to their factory and seen their torture tests, and you're not getting in one without a grinder or torch. And it would have to be a pretty bad fire to defeat one.

The point I was trying to make though is that all gun safes require certain tools to break into. You can't pop one open with a small crowbar, you can't drill the locks, you can't use a hacksaw, etc. The thief would either have to bring his own tools, which means he already knew you had guns and a safe, or use your tools. And that takes time and creates a lot of noise. Smash and grab drug seekers don't plan ahead (if they had an angle grinder they would pawn it for drug money), and professional burglars don't like to be in a house for that long or make that much noise. They like easily accessible electronics.

Bottom line, yes, it's very much worth it to have a gun safe. No gun safe will protect you in every situation, but most of them will protect you most of the time.

Just playing around for my own learning with varying plates, I've found that my grinder with a 4-inch & $5 DeWalt continuous metal cutting wheel go through the lighter plates almost like a hot knife through butter. I was kind of bummed to see how short my bedroom small B-rate with 1/4-inch would hold.

And I am probably overly paranoid in regards to how big a threat there is relative to the response. A zombified crackhead without enough motor control to open a doorknob kind of attack is probably several hundred times more likely than a hammer attack. A hammer attack is probably several thousands times more likely than a grinder attack, which is several thousand times more likely than a torch attack, which is several million times more likely than an explosives attack...but grinders, torches, and explosives are so much more fun!!

 

[cdk8]

Was it a difference in coverage or companies?

I was shocked at the response I got from my agent when I inquired about coverage, one thinks "replacement" means true replacement but not so in the insurance world. Solution, additional coverage above and beyond what my homeowners will pay.

It was a difference in what I thought the value was relative to what the company thought the value was. I had a 1921-D Half Dollar where the end amount they paid me was a little less than what I think most pawn shops would buy it for from someone needing quick cash and willing to take a hit. While a whole lot more than I originally paid, it was also quite a bit less than the price I would pay to purchase a replacement from a dealer in the same condition, as its value went up quite a bit. I got the impression that there are so many different things at play that it is almost impossible to know what company will be how generous on what date in which conditions.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

People often have this misconception that insurance (car, home, firearms, etc) will cover the cost of replacement.

That's not generally true...UNLESS you pay for "replacement cost" coverage or pay for a set amount of coverage.

If you have a 30 year old hot rod you've put $40,000 into restoring/building and it gets stolen or totaled, the insurance company is only going to pay what they think the market value is. NOT what you have invested. However, you CAN tell the insurance company you want $40,000 replacement coverage...and they'll happily charge you insurance premiums based on that instead.

Know what you want, know what you're getting.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Safes keep guns out the hands of children. They also make it less encouraging for someone to get in to your stuff. They are also good at keeping things you don't want to burn, from burning in a fire. (Some, not all). Like important documents or heirlooms.

Insurance covers more than theft. I carry USAA insurance on mine. Each item, even the scopes are individually insured. What this means is that if its stolen in transport, at the range, or at any time, they replace it. This insurance is also cool, because it replaces things broken in competition. So if I am running a stage, trip, fall... rifle goes down the hill, scope breaks. They replace it. Which is really nice.

 

[Mgaines]

If you are a member of the NRA they offer $2500 insurance for your firearms for free, all you need to do is sign in their site and activate the insurance.
I have less than $2500 in firearms so it works for me.

 

[dragon813gt]

A safe buys you time. That's what you're paying for. If you want a true safe that resists attacks then you need to pay up for a TL rated one. Buy according to your needs. Not everyone needs a Graffundur. If you have children the "not so cheap" StackOn glorified lockers are better than nothing. A job box offers better protection than a lot of RSCs and they are economical. Buy what you need.

 

[wally]

I have safes (RSC), alarm, insurance, and some of these hooked to the alarm:

http://www.burglarbomb.com/home.html

Defense in depth.

 

[hdwhit]

...but it's always supervised and the ammo is kept separate and that is locked up.

So, the guns are accessible but the ammunition is locked up?

At my house, it's the other way around, the guns are locked up but the ammunition is accessible.

Let's hope our kids (or grandkids, depending on our circumstances) don't meet and work out the intersection of these two sets.

 

[hdwhit]

...one thinks "replacement" means true replacement but not so in the insurance world.

Read your policy carefully.

If you're not paying for "replacement cost" coverage, you are probably insured for "actual cash value"; which is more or less what a pawn shop would give you for the item.

Some policies (like my homeowner's policy) have a provision that allow the insurance company to replace items directly instead of giving you cash. So, if your HP Quad Core computer gets stolen, the insurance company may give you a Compaq Quad Core computer instead.

Again, make sure you know what coverage you're actually buying.

 

[huntsman]

^ that's what my agent told me, A model 12 pump gun will be replaced by the cheaper make, if you want real replacement you need a rider and for that they want appraisal, photos and serial# on file.

 

[dragon813gt]

^ that's what my agent told me, A model 12 pump gun will be replaced by the cheaper make, if you want real replacement you need a rider and for that they want appraisal, photos and serial# on file.

And this is where it gets expensive quickly. If you have a small to modest collection it' probably won't be that bad. But if you have anything of substantial value be prepared to pay. Another option is collectors insurance. I've heard mixed reviews but I still have it. It's an agreed upon value w/ no serial numbers on file. You want $20k in coverage? Pay the premium and you have it. It's a lot more affordable than a rider on my homeowners would have been.

 

[huntsman]

Yeah I went with Collect Insure, I already had a safe that met their qualifications and my premium is low enough that my CFO(wife) doesn't seem to mind paying

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Here's another point of view on why even have a safe at all or just carry insurance:

With three teens in the house, I've had a few talks with them about driving and accidents.

An accident may not be "your fault", but it still damages your car and hurts/kills people. Better to be proactive, watch out for the other guy, and not have an accident at all.

Insurance will help repair or replace your vehicle, but in the meantime you have to suffer the hassle of not having your vehicle to drive. Better to be proactive, watch out for the other guy, and not have an accident at all.

The same philosophy applies with firearms security. Better to be proactive in securing them than to have to deal with their loss.

As for the cost of a safe...a halfway decent "safe" (most gun "safes" sold as such don't really qualify as an actual "safe", by the way) doesn't cost more than the price of a gun or two.

$300, $500, $1,000 for a safe...think about it. Even if all you have is a handful of rifles and shotguns, add up the cost and then figure their replacement value. Even if they're commonly sold items that are fairly inexpensive, any combination of 5 rifles and shotguns will easily add up to something between $1,000 and $2,000.

If you don't think it's affordable, then put off buying that next gun and set that money aside for a suitable safe. Next time you buy ammunition, put an equal amount aside for a safe.

 

[jmorris]

Next month set a bucket of candy outside your door with a sign that says "take one please". Have a camera setup so you can see how many, otherwise honest children, do not follow your wishes.

 

[OilyPablo]

Use a good safe, with it well hidden via tough access, well secured in at least two directions (bottom and back, for example). In a room with surveillance, in a core of the house with advance warning, in a house with monitoring, on property with active over sight.

AND contact Eastern Insurance.

You don't want the hassle of the event. You really don't.

 

[CapnMac]

Now, unaddressed in out conversation here are our members here who are apartment dwellers.

Apartment living means allowing all sorts of people only vetted by the front office--maintenance, hvac, cable, telco, pest control, etc. And, apartments are notoriously under-built.

Which suggests to me that there is probably a market for a 30" x 36" RSC of 400#. Fire protection could be reduced, as most multi-family falls under NFPA 13R requirement for sprinklers. Anonymity might be more of an issue--something more resembling an armoire to not catch the eye of the bug sprayer or cable dude.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

A 30" X 36" RSC at 400 pounds isn't really realistic. And that footprint is HUGE for an RSC...heck, even as a cabinet.

To give you an idea, the Stack-on FS series 24 gun "safe" is 29 1/4" X 20" X 55" and weighs 436 pounds. It has a fire rating of 30 minutes at 1,400 degrees F.

If we assume 12 gauge steel for the RSC, that makes the steel 7/64" thick. 3/16" thick steel weighs 245 pounds for a 4' X 8' sheet. When I do the math, 12 gauge steel weighs about 4.5 pounds per square foot.

A 30" X 36" X 55" RSC has an outside square footage of just over 65 square feet. Just under 300 pounds.

That doesn't count the inner steel lining, the steel plates used to protect the lock, steel and welding used to frame it uo and give it rigidity, and the locking mechanism. And don't forget insulation, shelving, and all the little stuff like carpet lining, screws, door seal, glue, paint, etc.

 

[dragon813gt]

If you live in an apartment look into a Snap Safe or one from Zanotti Armor. Their modular design means they don't draw attention when moving it into the apartment. They are made of thicker steel than a normal RSC. And they can be installed in places where a normal safe couldn't. They do cost a fair bit of money but are worth it to certain people. I would buy one from Zanotti over the other but that's personal preference.