Why heavy barrels?

[Welding Rod]

you don't have to have a heavy barrel to get good performance,

I haven't seen anyone make that claim.

Physics dictates that all equal, the heavy barrel will offer even better performance.

All equal more mass resists movement on target, more mass resist movement in recoil, and greater diameter is stiffer.

Try slinging up tight with a Gov profile barrel v. a HBAR.

It is just silly to claim that all equal, a heavy barrel doesn't offer some advantages.

 

[helotaxi]

another thing to mention with barrels such as the AR barrels, there are companies like WOA that are taking a lot of metal out of the full bull barrel with heavy milling.. this gives a lot of rigidity and a larger surface area to act as a heat exchanger, but in the end it doesn't weight all that much, and in a 556 AR the weight to compensate for recoil isn't nearly such a factor...

Fluting a barrel does not make it more rigid than the same barrel prior to fluting. In fact the removal of material makes it less rigid. It also does not make the barrel run cooler than the same barrel before fluting. In fact the removal of material means it will heat up faster.

Where the benefits of a fluted barrel show up is when you compare fluted and un-fluted barrels of the same weight. The fluted barrel will have a larger gross diameter and will be more rigid as a result. Because it contains the same amount of metal it will heat up just as quickly, but the increased surface area afforded by the flutes will provide for slightly increased cooling.

The effects of a heavy barrel can be duplicated by cutting a medium profile barrel down to a shorter length. The result is a more rigid barrel. While rigidity does not in and of itself equal precision ("accuracy" is the wrong term in this discussion), it does aid greatly with consistency and will greatly dampen out the effects of ammo inconsistency. The overall result is a reduced POI shift when changing charge weights and bullet weights. A heavy barrel may not shoot any better than a sporter or lightweight barrel but is has a better chance of shooting better with factory or bulk loaded ammo, and it will fare better with an extended string of fire.

For a rifle where the first shot is the only one that matters and the ammo is very precisely loaded, the heavy barrel offers no benefit that cannot be realized in other ways (i.e. stock weighting, a solid rest, muzzle brake, etc...) and if the rifle is to be carried any distance, it is a severe disadvantage.

 

[helotaxi]

The reason for big rims is - wait for it - BIG BRAKES. Mostly on race cars.

The other and perhaps more important reason is for reduced sidewall flex and reduced tire squirm under heavy cornering loads for a given diameter tire.

Most of the clowns that I see with massive rims on their truck haven't bothered with taking advantage of the big brakes that they allow. Makes for real fun to watch when they try to stop those massive tires that they often mate with those rims. Idiots will be idiots.

Anyway, back to the real topic...

 

[jiminhobesound]

Heavy barrels

To be really nit picking: Depending on caliber, a heavier barrel will deflect a little less during the time the bullet is in the barrel because recoil deflection should be less. So, it would seem that there has to be a barrel length to weight ratio that will provide optimum accuracy. Less time in barrel, less deflection, heavier barrel less defelction, but stiffness of the barrel regardless of the weight would seem to be a critical factor.

 

[helotaxi]

The benchrest crowd swears by 21 3/4" as the optimal length for harmonic purposes.

 

[xfyrfiter]

A heavy barrel does not magnify the shooters' mistakes as much as the light one, all other things being equal.

 

[coug]

I also like the heavy barrels in magnum rounds just so I don't get kicked so hard!!

 

[suzukisam]

Where the benefits of a fluted barrel show up is when you compare fluted and un-fluted barrels of the same weight. The fluted barrel will have a larger gross diameter and will be more rigid as a result. Because it contains the same amount of metal it will heat up just as quickly, but the increased surface area afforded by the flutes will provide for slightly increased cooling.

thats what I just said? you typed all that to say the same thing I did..

 

[helotaxi]

thats what I just said? you typed all that to say the same thing I did..

What came across is something very much other than that. In fact your post made precious little sense and implied that fluting made the relieved barrel more rigid, which it does not.

 

[Tirod]

Slinging up tight with a heavy barrel implies the sling swivel is attached - and only military guns do that. They are 2MOA spec, not better, and anyone wanting repeatable accuracy free floats them to do it. The heavy barrel then makes NO contribution.

A light weight profile precision barrel will be more accurate than a run of the mill HBAR, the weight of the barrel profile adds nothing to making it a straighter bore, optimized chamber leade, centered coaxial, or the optimum length. My point is that too many jump on the LOOKS, without understanding the TECH, and make bad buying decisions. The average consumer can't possibly know the tech - they're AVERAGE. Maybe a couple of semesters in college, NO technical training, watch "This Old House" to learn about putting up sheet rock, "After the piece is cut to size, place it against the wall and fasten it to the studs with nails or screws."

Note, they had to tell them about the studs.

Americans are HORRIBLY ignorant about what makes things work, or why, and the heavy barrel buyer is usually persuaded to get one thinking they get more accuracy. THEY CAN'T SHOOT GOOD ENOUGH TO FIND OUT. It's bling, social oneupmanship, I've got one and you don't, my 3/4 dually diesel is better than your little commuter car (and they both work in an office a mile apart.)

Heavy barrels just mean the maker dressed up the rough cut dimension and didn't profile it to a lighter shape. Less machining = higher profit.

And some people line up for that. Clueless.

 

[M-Cameron]

Tirod.....we get the point your making......but thats not the point were discussing....

like i said earlier.....thats like comparing the $1000 hunting rifle to the $75 'sniper' rifle.........the sniper rifle isnt going to shoot better just because you call it a "sniper" rifle..........

but how does that $1000 hunting rifle compare to the $1000 'sniper' rifle.......


we are talking about all things equal.....the advantages/ disadvantages of a heavy barrel over a lightweight barrel.......

and assuming you have a shooter who can notice the difference......the heavy barrel will shoot better than the light weight barrel.

 

[Zak Smith]

If we can make non-"heavy" barrels that shoot 1/4 or 1/3 MOA, and presume that other than BR competition you can't tell the difference between a 1/10th and a 1/4th MOA rifle, then why not go with a longer but thinner profile barrel to get more ballistic performance at long range?

 

[benzy2]

Because not everyone wants to carry the longest barrel possible into the field? For most of the shots I have the chance to take, a 20" .308 is going to perform very similar to a 30" .308 on target and will be a lot handier in the field. If length has no drawback in your use, then I'd go for a thinner longer barrel and take the velocity.

 

[M-Cameron]

If we can make non-"heavy" barrels that shoot 1/4 or 1/3 MOA, and presume that other than BR competition you can't tell the difference between a 1/10th and a 1/4th MOA rifle, then why not go with a longer but thinner profile barrel to get more ballistic performance at long range?

well thats just the thing....thats exactly why you predominantly see them on target guns as opposed to hunting rifles.....because theyre primary use is to maintain performance during long firing sessions.....a hunting rifle only really need to be able to take one shot, so POI shift isnt a problem...

 

[Zak Smith]

benzy2,

My point would hold just as well if you don't need the length for velocity. Unless you need weight for weight's sake, the heavy barrel has no advantage in your case either.

M-Cameron,

In my experience, rifles built right with top quality barrels do not drift unless you get to a point where stainless steel will change color. Even the NRA-LR "Rapid fire" strings don't even approach that. I've had my bolt gun barrels so hot (suppressed) that there was too much mirage radiating from the barrel (not the suppressor due to heat shield) that the target could not be seen. Zero does not change.


-z

 

[M-Cameron]

In my experience, rifles built right with top quality barrels do not drift unless you get to a point where stainless steel will change color. Even the NRA-LR "Rapid fire" strings don't even approach that. I've had my bolt gun barrels so hot (suppressed) that there was too much mirage radiating from the barrel (not the suppressor due to heat shield) that the target could not be seen. Zero does not change.

and if you dont have the money or resources for a top quality rifle and barrel......a heavy barrel can buy you a little bit of leeway....

 

[benzy2]

Zak,

My point was length for velocities sake isn't always a better option. There is a drawback to length, just as there is for weight. Switching one or the other isn't always a better option.

 

[CraigC]

It's all about balance. Enough weight to hang easily for accurate shot placement, not so much that you won't want to carry it all day, if that's what you need to do. A long enough barrel to get the most out of the cartridge, not too short as to inhibit its performance but not so long as to be a hindrance afield. Then all that must be weighed against the rifle's intended purpose. There's no reason for the big game hunter to carry around a heavy barrelled rifle with the hopes of getting off one accurate shot. Just as there's no reason for the varmint hunter to have to sit and wait for his sporter profile barrel to cool every several shots while he's sitting on a good dogtown 50ft from his truck.

I have to agree with much of the above from Tirod and Zak that lots of shooters falsely assume they are getting a more accurate rifle if it has a heavy barrel. Like I said before, it's seen most often with the 10/22. Folks assume an el cheapo Butler Creek barrel will shoot better than any sporter barrel strictly because of its profile. When in reality, they could've had their factory carbine barrel setback and rechambered only to find it shoots as well as the BC. Only now their rifle is still light enough to carry all day.

Centerfires are more affected by barrel vibrations and heat but who wants to carry a 12lb rifle all day because it's ¼MOA more accurate over 10 consecutive shots when a 7lb sporter will do everything you need it to? Not me.

 

[LTR shooter]

Regarding mass produced factory rifles I was looking for a rifle where the best possible accuracy (small groups) was the highest priority and picked a heavy barrel rifle. And a heavy profile barrel does not always equate to an overly heavy rifle as my 20" LTR is about 7.5lbs out of box. I'd still choose the heavy barrel for long range varmint hunting as well.

If I was to have a custom rifle built for precision shooting I'd go heavy barrel again.

For ranges that are commonly encountered in big game hunting any decent factory bolt rifle should have more than enough accuracy regardless of barrel profile. My hunting rifle wears a sporter profile barrel.

I'd venture to say if a million dollars was on the line to shoot the smallest group/groups or to hit the smallest target at long range from any shooting position , few would choose a light weight sporter or mountain rifle over a varmint/sniper style rifle , all else being equal.

 

[Welding Rod]

Slinging up tight with a heavy barrel implies the sling swivel is attached - and only military guns do that. They are 2MOA spec, not better, and anyone wanting repeatable accuracy free floats them to do it. The heavy barrel then makes NO contribution.

It is irrational to refute basic principles of physics.

Here is some reading for anyone who may be interested:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rigidity_benchrest_rifles.htm

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/50calibre/50cal_barrel_rigidity.htm

A light weight profile precision barrel will be more accurate than a run of the mill HBAR, the weight of the barrel profile adds nothing to making it a straighter bore, optimized chamber leade, centered coaxial, or the optimum length. My point is that too many jump on the LOOKS, without understanding the TECH, and make bad buying decisions. The average consumer can't possibly know the tech - they're AVERAGE. Maybe a couple of semesters in college, NO technical training, watch "This Old House" to learn about putting up sheet rock, "After the piece is cut to size, place it against the wall and fasten it to the studs with nails or screws."

Note, they had to tell them about the studs.

Americans are HORRIBLY ignorant about what makes things work, or why, and the heavy barrel buyer is usually persuaded to get one thinking they get more accuracy. THEY CAN'T SHOOT GOOD ENOUGH TO FIND OUT. It's bling, social oneupmanship, I've got one and you don't, my 3/4 dually diesel is better than your little commuter car (and they both work in an office a mile apart.)

Heavy barrels just mean the maker dressed up the rough cut dimension and didn't profile it to a lighter shape. Less machining = higher profit.

And some people line up for that. Clueless.

BTW - Detailing your poor opinion of everyone else adds nothing to THR threads.

 

[Tirod]

Ignoring Zak's competent analysis and attacking the higher profile argument does?

Show an empirical detailed analysis where a heavy barrel helps the AVERAGE consumer benefit. Give details of how much measurable improvement in MOA reduction occurs.

I can't. The analysis doesn't exist. The issue is clouded by opinion, not measurable fact. Shoot two barrels from the same gun and tell us all about it. Insisting on second hand conjecture when competent first hand experience has already weighed in and said it doesn't help means someone simply doesn't want to actually see the king's in his underoos.

Hard data or it's just marketing spin. The links are a benchrest rifle makers analysis of the math and CNC programming, no chronograph or targets with controls even submitted. Translation: Reputable maker of barrels SELLING his wares. Exactly the example needed to show what ISN'T being detailed in specific range results, a long examination of math theory with zip field data to back it up.

 

[Zak Smith]

If faced with the choice of a possible mediocre bull barrel vs. a possible mediocre thinner barrel, the thick on will probably be more accurate. One of my arguments is that a top quality light barrel (when chambered and mounted properly and the rifle bedded/tensioned if required), will almost certainly shoot better than the mediocre heavy one.

 

[suzukisam]

What came across is something very much other than that. In fact your post made precious little sense and implied that fluting made the relieved barrel more rigid, which it does not.

actually heavy fluting does add rigidity.. ever wonder why a van roof has flutes stamped into it? it's a pretty simple concept really, but anyway, the point I was making, that I probably didn't make clear is that a heavily fluted bull barrel, doesn't weight too much more than a standard profile barrel(obviously some barrels are different), and as was said previously they tend to be shorter at least when speaking of ARs. so the overall weight isn't a lot more, though it is heavier, and you have a more rigid barrel than the standard profile.. and it cools much better...