Why it's time to stop recommending 308Win, tips for new "long range" shooters.

[Lapuamag]

+100

This is the exact post I was planning on writing when I got home from the range. Folks should read what the OP actually wrote, the context of this thread is rifle cartridges that should be suggested to folks getting into long range target shooting, not what cartridge you like best, not what cartridge you think is best for hunting and definitely not what cartridge to use for bear defense in Alaska... In the context of his actual posts, the OP is right. The .308 has all kinds of good uses, and lots of folks get a warm fuzzy from shooting their .308s, but that's not what this thread is about.



This point is not really relevant to the actual premise of the thread, but I have looked it up, have you? You're totally wrong when comparing the most used 6.5 bullets and .308 bullets.

SDs
6.5:
123gr - 0.252
130gr - 0.266
140gr - 0.287
143gr - 0.297
147gr - 0.301

.308
155gr - 0.233
168gr - 0.253
178gr - 0.268
190gr - 0.286
200gr - 0.301

I shoot both, and to me, the .308 peaks in the 178gr - 185gr range, while most folks shooting the 6.5 at range are using bullets in the 130gr - 147gr range.

In my experience, with a Creedmoor you can push similar SD bullets 150 fps - 200 fps faster than you can with an equivalent .308.

The popular 6mm bullets tend to have lower SDs, that said, the 110gr SMK has an SD similar to a 130gr 6.5mm bullet, or a 178gr .308 bullet, but can be sent down range quite a bit faster than either out of standard short action cartridges.

Longer range shooting is really popular around here, so there is no shortage of good bullets in stock for 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm or .308. I'm sure availability varies by area though.

Ok, man. The point I'm making is that recommending a .308 is not poor advice and that it is an excellent long range caliber. Sure the 6.5 may be superior for long range shooting, sure the 6.5 may be lighter in recoil. But, to say definitively that the 6.5 is a better choice for any and every new shooter for long range use is a lie. You say hunting has nothing to do with it, well not to you, but people who shoot things beside paper may care that heavier bullets tend to be better at putting things down than lighter ones.

You spouted some data so please cite your sources. The other point you may be missing is that a heavier bullet with a similar SD is* superior. And I hope you aren't mixing up ballistic coeffeciency with sectional density, they are different.

Ok having said all that, I am not saying recommending only .308 for everyone is good either, but, don't start saying it's a bad recommendation because it is not. Just because you aren't willing to invest the time and energy into learning to handload, (if you don't) doesn't mean that a newbie can't.

My last point, if you were in a gunshop with a friend who wanted to walk out with a rifle to learn long range shooting, and sitting on the rack are a sig 3000 in .308 and next to it a ruger American in 6.5, you wouldn't recommend the 6.5 all things being equal, including price. So it's not all about the caliber, is It? I don't know if you own a gunshop and bought a deal load of 6.5s thinking it would be the next big thing, or what the deal is, but, .308 is as good if not better at some things and for some people than the 6.5 and vice versa.

Try not pulling things out of context. What I was saying about hunting had to do with real world application and not spreadsheet data.

 

[Gtscotty]

But, to say definitively that the 6.5 is a better choice for any and every new shooter for long range use is a lie.

Why? The 6.5mm and 6mm cartridges being discussed, shoot flatter, deflect less in the wind, and recoil less... The only argument for the .308 in this thread is barrel life. Again, re-read what the OP was posting about, and keep things in the context of this thread

You say hunting has nothing to do with it, well not to you, but people who shoot things beside paper may care that heavier bullets tend to be better at putting things down than lighter ones.

I've already spent three weekends out chasing elk and muleys this year and I haven't gotten good and cranked up yet, but that's not what this thread is about.

You spouted some data so please cite your sources. The other point you may be missing is that a heavier bullet with a similar SD is* superior.

The Hornady and Sierra websites, but you could find the same info on any number of other manufactures websites, MidwayUsa, etc. If you don't believe me, you're also welcome to do the calculations yourself, the equation is :

(Bullet weight in gr/7000)/(bullet diameter in in squared)

My last point, if you were in a gunshop with a friend who wanted to walk out with a rifle to learn long range shooting, and sitting on the rack are a sig 3000 in .308 and next to it a ruger American in 6.5, you wouldn't recommend the 6.5 all things being equal, including price. So it's not all about the caliber, is It?

If he wanted to shoot steel and targets at long range, I'd recommend the 6.5 CM over a .308 in the same rifle every time. If he wanted, I'd let him shoot both in my rifles, at range and in some wind, the choice would be easy after that.

Try not pulling things out of context. What I was saying about hunting had to do with real world application and not spreadsheet data.

....I was trying to pull you back into the context of the actual thread, not what you wanted it to be, my efforts seem to have been wasted though don't they?

 

[mshootnit]

We hunt open country deer, coyotes, not too many folks are using 308. Not highly recommended. For the big deer 30-06 is still king, and 270 is very close. For the coyote/deer guys it is 243 Win.
My uncle , rancher who been hunting his whole life said he never really like a 308 much. But I did see him shoot a deer with a 30-30 at 234 yds. Lever gun nostalgia I guess

 

[1stmarine]

147gr - 0.301

gtscotty,
who makes the 147gr bullet? I know there is one for hunting in 160gr round nose sp.
Thanks.

 

[someguy2800]

Here is an indication of the creedmore's popularity. I was just on the midway usa sight looking at 45-70 brass and noticed that with the rifle brass sorted as most popular first, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th best selling brass were all 6.5 creedmore

 

[Robert]

Eight pages is more than enough shouting past each other for this caliber war. But don't worry I'm sure an AR v AK thread will pop up soon...

P.S.
No that is not permission to start and AR v AK thread.