Why no 12 gauge pistol

[OARNGESI]

I was just curious why they dont make a gun similar to the super shorty without the forward grip would it be considered a pistol? It would be nice not to have to worry about tax stamps and they get away with it with rifles. If you start off with a brandnew receiver could you designate it as a pistol and build one yourself?

 

[jad0110]

My guess is lack of interest/demand. Some may be interested in such a weapon, but not enough to offer justification to a manufacturer to go through the legal, engineering/design and manufacturing difficulties involved.

Ever fired an 18"-ish barrel 12 gauge with a pistol grip? Most people, including myself, find them painful and difficult to shoot. Put a stock on it and it's fine for me. But lobbing more barrel and weight off a PG shotgun is bound to make the experience even more miserable. But to each his own. To some, shooting a 2" .500 S&W is as pleasurable as shooting a .45 ACP 1911 to the rest of us.

 

[Hunterdad]

I'd definitely be interested in one. It'd make a hell of an HD weapon.

 

[JohnnyK]

they DO make them.... I've seen and held them... Mossberg 500 and Remington 870... Tactical Firearms in Katy sells them www.tacticalfirearms.us contact them and they can hook you up! Mossberg 500 has vertical foregrip.. I think they both did... they are both class 3 items... bu Tactical does the paperwork for free when you buy from them.

 

[JohnnyK]

I have 18" mossberg 500 with pistol grip... it kicks like a mule!

 

[HKGuns]

As the others have said, I'm not interested. The recoil and sound would be horrible. The closer you lop that muzzle off toward your ears, the louder it gets.

 

[hirundo82]

I was just curious why they dont make a gun similar to the super shorty without the forward grip would it be considered a pistol?

No, it would still be an AOW:

26 USC § 5845. Definitions
For the purpose of this chapter—
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

If you tried to get around the smoothbore part by rifling it, I'm sure ATF would just declare it a DD (bore >0.50").

 

[jmorris]

^ +1.

Your pistols that will fire .410 shells are only legal because they can fire 45LC too.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

It'd make a hell of an HD weapon.

PGO shotguns suck compared to full stocked shotguns in any length.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Why no 12 gauge pistol?

I have seen several 12 gauge pistols at the local Class 03 dealer. They're called AOWs and are Title II, NFA firearms.

A shotgun pistol (concealable (under 26"), not designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder) is an NFA Any Other Weapon. A PGO shotgun from the factory with a pistol grip only (not concealable (26" or over)) is a GCA "other firearm".

A handgun of any caliber rifled barrel or smoothbore with a forward handgrip is also a NFA AOW.

The Serbu Super Shorty is an AOW because it is a shotgun pistol that incidentally has a vertical foregrip. Without the vertical foregrip, it is still an AOW because it is a shotgun pistol.

And a point overlooked:

You can build a pistol with a rifled barrel from a virgin receiver, if the 4473 shows the receiver listed as pistol or other firearm.
You can build an AOW with a smoothbore barrel from a virgin receiver, but you must get an approved ATF Form 1, $200 tax stamp, before you pass Go, otherwise you may go to jail.

 

[Sam1911]

I was just curious why they dont make a gun similar to the super shorty without the forward grip

As others have said, such have been made. In the case of the super shorty, the vertical grip gives you something to hang onto and pump while the gun's forend is so short that there wouldn't be much of a fore stock to grab and pump.

would it be considered a pistol?

Yes indeed. A smooth-bore pistol, which is an NFA Title II firearm falling into the category of "Any Other Weapon."

It would be nice not to have to worry about tax stamps

Yes it would be nice, but no, they're Title II regulated.

and they get away with it with rifles.

Rifled arms not designed to be fired from the shoulder are handguns, by definition, and specifically legal under Title I. Such arms when smoothbore and designed to fire shotshells are, by definition, Title II weapons.

If you start off with a brandnew receiver could you designate it as a pistol and build one yourself?

Yes you can! However, you'll have to pay the $200 making tax and register it on a Form 1, first. (The transfer tax if you buy an AOW from a dealer is only $5, though.)

 

[mortablunt]

Doesn't it count as smoothbore pistol, which is still NFA?

Also, imagine the recoil! You might as well marry a chiropractor.

 

[Sam1911]

Doesn't it count as smoothbore pistol, which is still NFA?

Uh...

would it be considered a pistol?

Yes indeed. A smooth-bore pistol, which is an NFA Title II firearm falling into the category of "Any Other Weapon."

From the post right above yours.

 

[Zoogster]

Others have cited the in depth response.

The bottom line is that if it is over .50 inch diameter bore and rifled the ATF will generally declare that it is a Destructive Device that has no sporting purpose.
If it is not rifled then it is a smoothbore pistol, an NFA item as well.


So a 12 gauge, and most shotgun calibers chambered in a gun under 26" overall length is a title 2 firearm.
Rifled, unrifled, shoulder stock, pistol grip only, etc

The .410 judge gets around this because it is under .50 bore diameter, and is rifled. Since it is under .50 bore diameter it is not subject to being a destructive device at the whim of the ATF.
Since it is rifled it is not a smoothbore pistol.
Taurus tried to unveil a 28 gauge judge at the 2011 shotshow called the raging judge, and the ATF made them realize the problems. 28 gauge is .55 bore diameter.
Suffice to say they have elected not to make the firearm, likely because the NFA requirement would remove most of the American market that buys the .410 judge, and would likely make importation into the US extremely difficult (import laws are far worse than domestic laws, and Taurus is in Brazil) and they would have to be made within the US someplace for the limited title 2 market.

 

[Ash_J_Williams]

It's my understanding that it'd cost the manfacturer $200 to MAKE each one, and customers would only pay $5 to TRANFERS an AOW, correct? That's how the shorty functions, I believe.

I'd like to see a Road Warrior-esque shotgun made by a manufacturer. If Ranch Hands and other Mare's Legs are selling, I assume they would.

 

[Zoogster]

it'd cost the manfacturer $200 to MAKE each one, and customers would only pay $5 to TRANFERS an AOW

No if the person has the correct manufacturing license and SOT they do not need to pay the $200 tax on each one, that is just for everyone else.

The $5 transfer is not the problem either. The FBI background check and relatively long delay is. Along with various states that have different laws and interpretations than federal law on what a firearm is and if it is legal.

When you look at where most judges are sold, and you then look at what it takes to buy a gun in many of those places, these are people that can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun. Impulse buy on a whim, like with most other products.
When you tell the average customer they will need to wait months, go through a thorough background check, get a specific signature from a chief law enforcement officer or make a trust, etc
Their eyes will gloss or roll over, and they will ask to see another gun.
If you also told them they would permanently be registered with the Federal Government, and that they would need permission from the ATF for various NFA items before they even legally cross state lines into states that allowed them, you could make even more people give up sooner.

Now to people that are firearm enthusiasts, such steps may just be another formality they will readily jump through for their next big toy. But for many people NFA stops the purchase. On top of that fewer stores have NFA items on display to even peak the interest of the casual consumer.
While the much derided judge can go on to be one of the most popular firearms in the USA even though it has poor ballistics because it can be readily purchased like any other handgun, a similar NFA item would have limited sales by comparison.

 

[Ash_J_Williams]

No if the person has the correct manufacturing license and SOT they do not need to pay the $200 tax on each one, that is just for everyone else.

The $5 transfer is not the problem either. The FBI background check and relatively long delay is. Along with various states that have different laws and interpretations than federal law on what a firearm is and if it is legal.

When you look at where most judges are sold, and you then look at what it takes to buy a gun in many of those places, these are people that can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun. Impulse buy on a whim, like with most other products.
When you tell the average customer they will need to wait months, go through a thorough background check, get a specific signature from a chief law enforcement officer or make a trust, etc
Their eyes will gloss or roll over, and they will ask to see another gun.
If you also told them they would permanently be registered with the Federal Government, and that they would need permission from the ATF for various NFA items before they even legally cross state lines into states that allowed them, you could make even more people give up sooner.

Now to people that are firearm enthusiasts, such steps may just be another formality they will readily jump through for their next big toy. But for many people NFA stops the purchase. On top of that fewer stores have NFA items on display to even peak the interest of the casual consumer.
While the much derided judge can go on to be one of the most popular firearms in the USA even though it has poor ballistics because it can be readily purchased like any other handgun, a similar NFA item would have limited sales by comparison.

I understand that. Everything you're saying makes complete sense, and I agree.

Do you have to go through all this sort of stuff to purchase the Shorty? I'm unsure, I never really looked into it because they're a little tacky to me, but I've seen them in shops before.

I'm just making a passing statement. If things like the Mare's Leg customizations are selling (not the "stock" Mare's Legs, which are considered pistols, but the guys who "make" Mare's Legs from old or new Winchesters, which are ironically much more expensive than a Rossi or Henry), then I'd think someone would be willing to put up with the crap to get Mad Max's shotgun. I would.

 

[rondog]

There used to be such contraptions factory-made, here's a photo of one in the J.M Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, OK. I can't remember the name of the weapon, but it was a manufactured item way back in the days. They have several of them there, looks like quite a beast to shoot.



Here's another one....who wants to shoot it first? Wish I could remember the name, but I bet you could buy 'em at any hardware store when they were manufactured legally.

 

[Sam1911]

On top of that fewer stores have NFA items on display to even peak the interest of the casual consumer.

Heck, few shops pay the Special Occupational Tax, Class 03 to be allowed to sell them at all.

but I bet you could buy 'em at any hardware store when they were manufactured legally.

You could, but not since 1934. And very few shops would have had one sitting on the shelf for you. Custom order, for sure.

One was made by Ithaca and called the "Auto & Burglar."