Why no 9x18 "Micro" Maks?

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Jim PHL

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Might be a lot quicker to answer this than it's going to take me to ask it:

I've been looking a lot lately at .380's and 9x18's. I don't currently own a gun in either caliber. I mainly started looking at LCP's, P3AT's, etc as a pocket gun which had me also "just looking";) at larger offerings in the same calibers. I've always liked the Walther PPK and PPK/S and the Bersa models have an impressive following. There are plenty of other current .380 offerings, too. Just recently I also started looking at PA-63's, P64's and Makarov PM's in 9x18.

This had me wondering why none of the manufacturers has put out a small pocket pistol using the slightly more powerful Mak cartridge. I'm guessing it's because a gun that could handle the round would have to be the size and weight of the more popular and powerful 9x19, so why bother. Does anyone know if that's the real reason? (I've heard it said the Mak is closer to the 9x19 than it is to the Kurz.)

As a side note, I don't know of too many more guns in 9x18 other than the ones I mentioned and maybe a couple of less popular guns for that caliber. It occurs to me there may be no "modern" guns designed in, say, the last 20-30 years that shoot the Mak round. Heck, is anyone even still building the older Mak models or is every Mak gun out there a milsurp?
 
Jim PHL Might be a lot quicker to answer this than it's going to take me to ask it:

I've been looking a lot lately at .380's and 9x18's. I don't currently own a gun in either caliber. I mainly started looking at LCP's, P3AT's, etc as a pocket gun which had me also "just looking" at larger offerings in the same calibers. I've always liked the Walther PPK and PPK/S and the Bersa models have an impressive following. There are plenty of other current .380 offerings, too. Just recently I also started looking at PA-63's, P64's and Makarov PM's in 9x18.

This had me wondering why none of the manufacturers has put out a small pocket pistol using the slightly more powerful Mak cartridge. I'm guessing it's because a gun that could handle the round would have to be the size and weight of the more popular and powerful 9x19, so why bother. Does anyone know if that's the real reason? (I've heard it said the Mak is closer to the 9x19 than it is to the Kurz.)

As a side note, I don't know of too many more guns in 9x18 other than the ones I mentioned and maybe a couple of less popular guns for that caliber. It occurs to me there may be no "modern" guns designed in, say, the last 20-30 years that shoot the Mak round. Heck, is anyone even still building the older Mak models or is every Mak gun out there a milsurp?
Click to expand...

It's highly unlikely that any U.S manufacturer would build a micro Mak...it just isn't anywhere as close in popularity to the 9mm or .380

It's not the size or power of the round....just look at pistols like the Kahr PM9 or P40, both substantially smaller & lighter than most 9x18's. Most 9x18's are blowback operated which makes recoil seem stronger than locked breech or Browning type designs.

Foreign built "micro sized" guns (ala Ruger LCP, Kahr P380, etc) would not be able to earn enough points on the ATF factoring criteria to be importable.
 
The Hungarians made a sort of "micro" 9x18. I've only seen one example, so I guess it is few and far between. I don't the the PA83 or whatever it is.
Jim
 
I have 4 PA-63's 5 P64's 3 CZ 82's (and I lost track of CZ52's and Romanian Tok's). So I go through some 9X18's around here. Cut down 9X19 brass to .710 and reload it. I digress.
As you probably know the guns I mention are all blow back pistols as is the Bersa. Very accurate pistols. MilSurp's are built to take a licking and keep on ticking. Not pretty and nobody cared if they fit the concealed carry crowd :)
The P64 is closest thing to a pocket MilSurp out there. It is as small as your hand. 6+1 is a good carry amount. Very good gun for concealed carry. The FEG PA-63 is also easily concealed and gives you one more round than the P-64 but is very slightly larger.

Ammo is cheap and plentiful. The guns are very reliable and accurate. A simple and inexpensive spring change makes them all very comfortable to shoot in DA or SA.

As to why the 9X18 is not popular here is easy....it is a ComBloc round and the West is really just being exposed to it. In Eastern Europe it is very popular. Simple geography thing frankly.

Many folks here in Texas carry MilSurp pistols. It has sorta become "chic" to carry a old ComBloc pistol as your concealed carry weapon. I see lots of them showing up at CCW class these days. They are inexpensive, ammo is plentiful and cheap, more than enough ballistics to defend yourself, and they are easily concealed. So it makes sense people are discovering them now.

EDIT: Here...I have about every dadgum gun made so I can compare any two if you wish...
The KelTec PF9 seems to have a following here so I will compare a Polish P64 to a KelTec PF9.
th_P64KelTecPF9001.jpg
th_P64KelTecPF9002.jpg
th_P64KelTecPF9004.jpg

The P64 is a military weapon and all steel so it weighs about 10oz's +/- more but in your IWB it is totally negligible versus the KelTec PF9. P64 is thinner and smaller.
 
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Actually nobody is even making any new 9x18 guns in any size. Russia, China and even Bulgaria still make Makarovs and Steckins (and plenty are still in service and will be for a long time)but are generally moving away from the caliber.

Do any of the western gun makers make or offer a 9x18?

The best I had was the Hungarian FEG SMC-918 (a more rounded and pocket friendly copy of the PPK)

The East German Makarov was the best version of that pistol I owned. (and I owned them all but the simpson-Suhl and a real chinese military)

Also 9x18 ammo choices are very limited two of the best are either no longer made (Corbon JHP) or imported (PS Grand from slovakia).

The Hornady is not very hot and the "bears" are nice and cheap but a lot of the ammo choices have dried up.

With few makers still making guns in the caliber and few mainstream choices in ammo makes for a difficult future at present.
 
Northbender did some excellent work on many different types of mak ammo on the makarov forum.

His findings;

Cor-Bon 95-gr JHP (10 rounds tested)

No longer manufactured.

Manufacturer: CorBon/Glaser, Sturgis, South Dakota
Headstamp: *-* 9x18 MAK (Starline brass)
Cartridge Case: Brass case (Starline), Boxer primed, non-corrosive primer
Bullet: 94.9-gr (1 measured) copper-coated with flat copper-coated base
Magnetic: Case and bullet are non-magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.946 - 0.950
Avg: 0.948

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 1123 - 1153
Avg: 1135
ES: 30
SD: 9


PS Grand 95-gr FMJ (10 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: PS Grand a.s., Bytca, Slovakia
Headstamp: PS 9mm M
Cartridge Case: Brass case, Boxer primed, non-corrosive primer
Bullet: 94.6-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case – no; bullet jacket is magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.967 - 0.974
Avg: 0.970

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 1041 - 1093
Avg: 1070
ES: 52
SD: 17

He came up with far lower numbers for S&B

Sellier & Bellot 95-gr FMJ (10 rounds tested)

24-round white box.

Manufacturer: Sellier & Bellot JSC, Vlašim, Czechoslovakia
Headstamp: 9 mmM S & B
Cartridge Case: Steel case, Berdan primed, non-corrosive primer
Bullet: 93.5-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.961 - 0.965
Avg: 0.963

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 898 - 934
Avg: 916
ES: 36
SD: 14


Sellier & Bellot 95-gr FMJ (10 rounds tested)

50-round green/red/white box

Manufacturer: Sellier & Bellot JSC, Vlašim, Czechoslovakia
Headstamp: 9 mmM S & B
Cartridge Case: Brass case, Boxer primed, non-corrosive primer
Bullet: 93.7-gr (1 measured), copper-coated with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Case and bullet are non-magnetic

OAL (ins)
Range: 0.977 - 0.979
Avg: 0.978

Velocity: (fps)
Range: 914 - 966
Avg: 940
ES: 52
SD: 16

Anyway here is the entire chart, very little of the ammo is available anymore but shows what was available at one time

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?299-9x18-Ammunition-Data&
 
Actually nobody is even making any new 9x18 guns in any size. Russia, China and even Bulgaria still make Makarovs and Steckins (and plenty are still in service and will be for a long time)but are generally moving away from the caliber.
Click to expand...

This pretty much sums it up. Nothing wrong with the Mak, and they'll make AMMO for the existing guns for a good long while, but its a round of the past. .380 duplicates its performance and domestic manufacturers will always go with it over 9x18 - not only because of its higher popularity in this country, but also because barrel blanks for .380 share the same diameter as 9mm Luger. The oddball .363" diameter is pretty much exclusive to 9mm Mak.
 
There is a lot of great information and knowledge here. I think you will be seeing and are see many manufacturers producing and developing more and more subcompacts in 9mm lugger; for example, the Solo Cary by Kimber and the R9 by Rohrbaugh. Why not just go with the more popular cartridge. My R9 is my CCW and my night stand artillery, small and powerful. It is about the size of the LCP; by the way is my brothers newest addition to his collection. Like it was stated before .380 and 9mm are popular and easy to find in the USA.
 
If you reload, 9x18 is more practical than 380 ACP. There will never be a shortage of 9x19 cases to cut down. It is an extremely easy cartridge to reload and there is a decent selection of bullets for it.

The 9x18 has about 100 FPS advantage over the 380 ACP with 95 grain bullets.

I would buy a Kel-tec P3AT sized pistol chambered in 9x18 without hesitation. I'm not going to hold my breath. :)
 
There is an untrue perception among many U.S. shooters that 9x18 is hard to find, so I doubt we'll see any micros produced for it.
 
If you reload, 9x18 is more practical than 380 ACP. There will never be a shortage of 9x19 cases to cut down.
Click to expand...

I reload for both .380 and 9x19 (and shoot 9x18 - saving my brass but haven't got a die set for it yet), but as a safety matter I won't convert any brass for which I one a gun that actually shoots it. My headstamps have to match.
 
I always mark the head-stamps with a black marker on my cut down brass. Not for me but for my next fellow reloader who may pick up my brass and it is stamped 9X19 Luger. The black mark across the head-stamp should give him/her a heads up. I do not collect my Mak brass as it usually has not re-entered earths atmosphere by the time I leave.

The ballistics chart the gentleman provided is almost five years old. I consistently see over 1000fps out of S&B/Silver Bear and of course my reloads with 95g XTP's.

I am not trying to sell anybody anything here. But just off the top of my head...

9X18MM MilSurp
Pro's
Built to Military Specs
Inexpensive
Tough/Dependable/Reliable
Ammo cheap and plentiful
More punch than a .380
Very easy to work on
Plenty of parts available
Easily concealed

Con's
Steel is heavier than plastic
Magazines may be more expensive (most come with two magazines)
They are used
No factory warranty :)
Most take a inexpensive set of Wolff Springs to run easily in DA/SA
 
There really isn't any good SD ammo available for the 9mm Mak. The Soviets and their Eastern Bloc cronies were content with FMJ bullets being military issue guns. Since the 9mm Mak is not a Western or American design, I doubt there is any interest to make modern day quality expanding SD ammo.

I would be interested to see if anyone has shot some of that Russian JHP steel cased stuff through ballistic gelatin to see if it really expands reliably. My guess is that it may have feeding issues with former Commie guns and clog up easily in heavy clothing like old pre-1990 JHP ammuntion.

For self defense when you life is at stake, there are much better choices than the 9x18mm considering the poor ammunition choices available.
 
9x18 seems to have more recoil. Although I wonder how it would do in a locked breech pistol, ala keltec.
 
flakbait said:
There really isn't any good SD ammo available for the 9mm Mak. The Soviets and their Eastern Bloc cronies were content with FMJ bullets being military issue guns. Since the 9mm Mak is not a Western or American design, I doubt there is any interest to make modern day quality expanding SD ammo.

I would be interested to see if anyone has shot some of that Russian JHP steel cased stuff through ballistic gelatin to see if it really expands reliably. My guess is that it may have feeding issues with former Commie guns and clog up easily in heavy clothing like old pre-1990 JHP ammuntion.

For self defense when you life is at stake, there are much better choices than the 9x18mm considering the poor ammunition choices available.
Click to expand...
Corbon and Hornady make modern JHP loads in 9x18. Sounds like you didn't know that.
 
The Czech made ZVI Kevin is offered in .380ACP and 9x18mm. That's the gun sold as the Micro Desert Eagle in the US.
Click to expand...

SHORT ANSWER
They DO

But the MDE is known to be a POCKET MONSTER, not mouse in .380
Its a case of just a bit too much in too small a package.
 
harmon rabb said:
Corbon and Hornady make modern JHP loads in 9x18. Sounds like you didn't know that.
Click to expand...
Buffalo Bore also makes a potent SD round for the Mak. I like my little PA63 but don't carry it as often as my PF9 because the of the wieght and size difference. Still a great little pistol.

GEDC0324.jpg
 
flakbait said:
There really isn't any good SD ammo available for the 9mm Mak. The Soviets and their Eastern Bloc cronies were content with FMJ bullets being military issue guns. Since the 9mm Mak is not a Western or American design, I doubt there is any interest to make modern day quality expanding SD ammo. ...

....there are much better choices than the 9x18mm considering the poor ammunition choices available.
Click to expand...

This is pretty good SD ammo. Suppose it would work? http://www.hornady.com/store/9-x-18mm-Makarov-95-gr-critical-Defense/
 
armarsh said:
This is pretty good SD ammo. Suppose it would work? http://www.hornady.com/store/9-x-18mm-Makarov-95-gr-critical-Defense/
Click to expand...
You will have to try to see if it functions in your gun. I have picked up Century Arms FM HP compact recently. The feed ramp looks like it was designed for FMJ. I have tried JHPs in 115gr, 124gr, 135gr and 147gr weights from different manufacturers and shockingly it cycles perfectly.
Fiocchi and CorBon also offered JHPs in 9x18 when I owned one but I doubt they still offer loads in this caliber. All I see in Eastern Euro stuff, Hornady, and American Eagle FMJ which cost more then 9x19 JHPs.
 
Corbon and Hornady make modern JHP loads in 9x18. Sounds like you didn't know that.
Click to expand...

Corbon only offers the 9x18 in Pow R Ball and Glaser not a JHP

And according to Hornady's own web site the 9x18 Mak
Muzzle 1000/211 50 930/182 100 874/161

vs 380
Muzzle 1000/200 50 913/167 100 846/143

slight advantage mak I suppose but not as great when you consider that no new 9x18's are on the horizon.

The Czech made ZVI Kevin is offered in .380ACP and 9x18mm. That's the gun sold as the Micro Desert Eagle in the US.
Click to expand...

Ok at least one company built a new one but it appears to be only for Eastern European markets and it does not appear available in the US currently. And the MDE does not seem to be catching on in 380 when compared to others in its catagory.
 
I think you will be seeing and are see many manufacturers producing and developing more and more subcompacts in 9mm lugger; for example, the Solo Cary by Kimber
Click to expand...

Well lets hope that no more design or produce 9's like the Solo Kimber, for every one good report it seems like 5 negative reports and multiple return trips to the factory. Beta testing you gotta love it!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615549&highlight=kimber+solo

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615786&highlight=kimber+solo

:uhoh:
 
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