9x18 Ballistics? From a Cz-82?

[Hammerhead6814]

Wikipedia tells me that the 9x18 Mak has just about half the energy that a 9x19 has. This strikes me kind of funny. Being just one millimeter shorter than the Para, the Mak loses 200 ft-lbs of energy at muzzle? Hmmm.

It's kind of hit me, most 9x19 handguns are either four or five inches long. Guns that shoot the mak (Makarov, Fort-12, CZ-82, etc), are three and four-fifths inches long!

The another thing hit me. Most foreign made Makarov ammo, such as Silver Bear, are weighing in at 95 gr. While 9x19's are usually 115 gr or up.

So here (finally) is the question:

In a longer barrel, using heavier bullets, could a 9x18 Makarov cartridge pull of ballistics that are more equatable to the 9x19 Para than the 9x17 Browning? Would either one of those two ideas help more than the other?

 

[savit260]

The Makarov style guns are straight blowback designs, while the 9mm Para's are locked breech designs, that can handle a lot more power.

I think it's more a matter of the basic design of the gun not being able to take a more powerfull load.

Most seem to agree that in most cases the 9mm Makarov is about as powerful a round as your standard straight blowback design can take.(with a few exeptions)

 

[Shear_stress]

In a longer barrel, using heavier bullets, could a 9x18 Makarov cartridge pull of ballistics that are more equatable to the 9x19 Para than the 9x17 Browning? Would either one of those two ideas help more than the other?

Max SAAMI pressure for 9mmP is 35000 psi while that for 9mm Mak is 24100 psi. It going to be hard to safely make up for that difference in a blowback firearm.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Hammerhead, these guys have given you great info, but I don't think they quite answered the question you asked. Considering that longer bbls can raise the velocity of a round, it is theoretically possible to raise the velocity with, say, a 20 inch bbl or something. And since the energy you're speaking of is proportional to the square of the velocity, (E=mv squared) it's possible to increase the energy to be on par with the 9mm by raising the velocity. It's jut not all that practicable.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

I don't believe the story that straight blowback cannot handle the 9x19. Astra Pistols did it. The Sten Gun did it.

According toModern Firearms, the CZ-82 was designed to use rounds that were 20% "hotter" than standard Soviet 9x18.

In short, in pistols like the CZ-82, I'm not to terribly worried that it will fail with hotter cartridges. This doesn't mean that I think I should load as much powder as I can into it, just that it will handle the additional stress.

But the two questions still remain. The one that I guess can be answered and is more probable is: Will heavier bullets increase overall stopping power? Originally I worded this question wrong, sorry about that.

 

[Steve C]

the 9x18 Mak has just about half the energy that a 9x19 has

Remember that energy is calculated by the square of the velocity times the mass of the bullet. The makarov uses a bullet that's generally 10 to 25% lower in mass and velocity than the 9x19. The energy calculated is lowered more by the lower velocity than the lighter weight of the bullet.

I don't believe the story that straight blowback cannot handle the 9x19. Astra Pistols did it. The Sten Gun did it.

The 9mm (9x19) is a high pressure round and any pistol firing it must delay the action opening long enough for the pressure to drop just to prevent the case from rupturing upon the opening of the actions. The Sten does this with a heavy bolt as most open bolt firing SMG's do. The Astra, the only blow back 9x19 Military pistol did it with heavy springs and slide. Locking breach pistols allow for a more compact and lighter weight design so that's why they are the weapons of choice in the market supplanting blow back designs for high pressure and heavier caliber weapons.

 

[Shear_stress]

In short, in pistols like the CZ-82, I'm not to terribly worried that it will fail with hotter cartridges. This doesn't mean that I think I should load as much powder as I can into it, just that it will handle the additional stress.

It's less about what the pistol can handle and more about how many tiny pieces of brass shrapnel the shooter can handle. Case separation is no joke. Seriously, you cite a 20% difference in Czech versus Russian 9mm Mak ammo, and this leads you to dismiss the fact that 9mm P operates at nearly 70% more pressure, according to max SAAMI specs?

I don't believe the story that straight blowback cannot handle the 9x19. Astra Pistols did it. The Sten Gun did it.

Nobody says that straight blowback cannot handle 9mm P. It's just that you'd have to redesign the gun to do it. As Steve C wrote, the Astra withstood the round by using a monstrously powerful spring that made charging and firing the pistol needlessly unpleasant. There is a reason why the Astra was one of the few pistol designs in over 100 years of auto pistol history to attempt to deal with the greater pressure of the Parabellum round in this fashion. Other guns, like the Hi-Point and most 9mmP submachineguns use a slide or bolt that weighs a substantial percentage of what an entire CZ-82 weighs.

Will heavier bullets increase overall stopping power?

"Stopping power" is a vaguely defined concept at best. I'd worry more about shot placement. Makes for safer practice, too.

 

[GLOOB]

Not recommended, but...

I feel irresponsible just for posting this link. But it's highly amusing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRtEFH7VFg

This is obviously bad idea, for the reasons that Steve C has stated. The guy was lucky.

On top of everything else, notice how weak his recoil spring is! He can hold the slide open with just the friction from the tip of his index finger on the side of the slide! I don't remember if my original spring was THAT weak, but I can't come close to doing that with my stronger Wolff recoil spring.

 

[Magwa]

GLOOB- Seen that one. What some idiots will do. I was just waiting for that PA-63 to explode in his hands.

 

[RockawayCCW]

The Wikipedia article says that soviet surplus Makarov ammo tests in the mid 20,000 psi range. SAAMI specs being developed for 9x18 Makarov are 24,000 psi - which is about the maximum for a blowback pistol that doesn't weigh as much as your common Buick.

CZ82 pistols are probably made for the 24000 psi stuff since they tend to stove-pipe using 20,000 psi soviet surplus.

FEG PA-63 pistols are made (I think) for soviet 20,000 psi ammo which would explain why they bite your hand when using commercial ammo. A stronger recoil spring mostly fixes that.

As for your original question: a 5 or 6 inch barrel would give your 9x18 Makarov a little extra velocity but it still wouldn't approach the whomp of a 9x19 Luger. Too bad BallisticsByTheInch doesn't test 9x18.

 

[RockawayCCW]

Makarov pressures

The Wikipedia article says that soviet surplus Makarov ammo tests in the mid 20,000 psi range. SAAMI specs being developed for 9x18 Makarov are 24,000 psi - which is about the maximum for a blowback pistol that doesn't weigh as much as your common Buick.

CZ82 pistols are probably made for the 24000 psi stuff since they tend to stove-pipe using 20,000 psi soviet surplus.

FEG PA-63 pistols are made (I think) for soviet 20,000 psi ammo which would explain why they bite your hand when using commercial ammo. A stronger recoil spring mostly fixes that.

As for your original question: a 5 or 6 inch barrel would give your 9x18 Makarov a little extra velocity but it still wouldn't approach the whomp of a 9x19 Luger. Too bad BallisticsByTheInch doesn't test 9x18.

 

[christcorp]

I both the CZ-82 and the PA-63. My CZ-82 has NEVER stovepiped any ammunition, of any kind. I shoot brown bear, silver bear, hornady, wolf, and some left over tula I have. Of more than 100+ guns I've owned/own, my CZ-82 and SigSauer P220 are the only 2 guns that I HAVEN'T been able to find ammo that it wouldn't shoot. I was going to replace the recoil spring in the CZ-82 with a wolf spring kit; but why? I love to tweak, but I've shot 6 CZ-82's and they are about the most reliable guns I've ever had. That and my P220.

While commercial specs say the highest 9x18 is, is around 24,000 and 9x19 is around 35,000; there is more to consider. The 9x19 isn't a .356 diameter bullet either. It's a .364 bullet. Not a big change in the diameter of the bullet, but the larger the diameter, the better. Also, with new ammo like Buffalo-Bore, the 9x18 is no longer stuck with a 94 grain at 1000 fps and 210 ft/lbs. It has hardcast flat nose 115 grain bullets, at 1057 fps and close to 300 ft/lbs. And that's with REAL TESTS in a CZ-82. (Buffalo-bore only gives REAL test results). And Buffalo-Bore is coming out with a new Hollow-Point soon also.

Not saying that the 9x18 is better or equal to a 9x19 9mm para, but with the 115 grain Buffalo-Bore, it isn't that far off of a standard 115 grain 9x19. And the extra diameter helps a little. I know, you can get +p 9mm luger ammo too. No argument. But people's anatomies haven't changed in the last 100 years. It isn't harder to kill someone today than it was then. The 9x18 makarov round has served the eastern block countries well for about 30 years. I don't think twice about having it as my concealed carry.

 

[RockawayCCW]

sorry about the double-post. I tried to delete the first one but there doesn't seem to be any way to do so.

 

[Shadow 7D]

http://www.freeexistence.org/vz82.html

Wow, now I'm glad I ran into this thread, apparently the Czech make a sintered iron bullet that is lighter than 9mak, and push it in the 1100 to 1200 range, Now remember that it's military, hence FMJ, and supposedly a bunch of it was in country late 90's early 00, enough that the distributors offered a package deal with the PA-63's, even though the bullet was specifically designed to be used with polygonal rifling and beside being too hot for the little gun, would eat the bore (it's a lacquered iron round!!!!)

read post 10 and 11
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?170732-Cz-82-and-buffalo-bore

 

[North Bender]

CZ82 pistols are probably made for the 24000 psi stuff since they tend to stove-pipe using 20,000 psi soviet surplus.

Could you give ANY source for that info? And what psi info do you have for Russian ammunition?

apparently the Czech make a sintered iron bullet that is lighter than 9mak, and push it in the 1100 to 1200 range,

That's a fact; I hobnobed with the Czechs in Afghanistan who carried that "sintered" bullet in 9x18.

 

[harmon rabb]

Get some Buffalo Bore stuff for your cz-82. It pretty much closes the gap between 9x18 and standard pressure 9mm. Cycles fine in my cz-82, but then again, that gun will eat anything.

 

[Manco]

While commercial specs say the highest 9x18 is, is around 24,000 and 9x19 is around 35,000; there is more to consider. The 9x19 isn't a .356 diameter bullet either. It's a .364 bullet. Not a big change in the diameter of the bullet, but the larger the diameter, the better.

I think you might have that backwards--it is 9x18mm Makarov that has the larger bullet diameter between the two. 9x19mm Luger uses .355" or .356" bullets.

 

[christcorp]

Yes 9x19 is a typo. It's 9x18.

I find it funny how some people think the 380 is too weak, and then they say the 9x18 is simply a 380+p. At one time, a 32acp was a commonly carried police and military round. I guess some people think it's harder to die today than it was 30-50 years ago. Personally, I find the 9x18 makarov to be one the perfect calibers. Ammo is plentiful and inexpensive. Doesn't kick that much. Plenty powerful enough for self defense. Excellent guns for concealed carry.

 

[Fremmer]

the 9x18 Mak has just about half the energy that a 9x19 has. This strikes me kind of funny. Being just one millimeter shorter than the Para, the Mak loses 200 ft-lbs of energy at muzzle? Hmmm.

I suppose the barrel length makes a little bit of a difference, but not too much. "Being just one mm shorter" can make a big difference, though. Ask the 10mm guys about that!

 

[RockawayCCW]

Not sure which part of that you want a source for, so I will address both.

RE: pressure specs... The wikipedia article on 9x18 Makarov states that soviet surplus ammo has been tested at 20,000 psi. I have found the same info on multiple websites.

RE: stove-pipe jams... I have several CZ82s that I use in my CCW classes. They have small grips and a pretty nice trigger pull for such an inexpensive gun. And when running the low-pressure surplus ammo, they won't tolerate limp-wristing, which makes them a great teaching tool. There is also a YouTube video that shows a stove-pipe on a CZ82.

 

[harmon rabb]

I find it funny how some people think the 380 is too weak, and then they say the 9x18 is simply a 380+p. At one time, a 32acp was a commonly carried police and military round. I guess some people think it's harder to die today than it was 30-50 years ago. Personally, I find the 9x18 makarov to be one the perfect calibers. Ammo is plentiful and inexpensive. Doesn't kick that much. Plenty powerful enough for self defense. Excellent guns for concealed carry.

Excellent because they're affordable, reliable, and have great triggers. Otherwise... A G19 is about the same size, holds more rounds, and completely outclasses the cz-82 in terms of ballistics when loaded with +p and +p+ stuff.

I carry my cz-82 sometimes, simply because it's reliable and I can shoot it well.

 

[christcorp]

I consider the CZ-82 one of the best pistols I've ever had. And that's more than 100. I WON'T own a glock. And magazine capacity is NEVER a priority on my list. I would never choose or discard a pistol choice because of how many rounds it carries. And honestly; if magazine capacity is important to you, how can anyone complain about 13 rounds in the CZ-82. And I feel quite comfortable with my CZ-82 and hornady, silver bear, or buffalo-bore ammo.

 

[harmon rabb]

if magazine capacity is important to you, how can anyone complain about 13 rounds in the CZ-82

Because you can have 16 rounds of 9mm+p+ in a G19 for the same size and weight instead, and 9mm+p+ severely outclasses even the buffalo bore 9x18 by a large margin.

That said, I think that 13 is enough for basic civilian carry, and that the buffalo bore 9x18 will get the job done. One could certainly do much worse for a carry pistol than a cz-82.

Speaking of cz-82's, I wish my c&r would hurry up and get here, because I want to order a few more of them before the cheap supply of them runs out

 

[0VERKILL]

I suppose the barrel length makes a little bit of a difference, but not too much. "Being just one mm shorter" can make a big difference, though. Ask the 10mm guys about that!

Could you please clarify what, I'm not sure I completely get the referance?

As to the 9x18 vs. 9x19 debate, as mentioned earlier the Parabellum runs at a much higher pressure so I won't go into that. What hasn't been mentioned is not the case length but the overall length of the rounds. The maximum cartridge length for the 9x18 is .982" and the 9x19 is listed at 1.169. Due to the bullet being seated out further the 9x19 also has a much greater case capacity. As listed by Richard Lee's Modern Reloading the 9x18 has a useful case capacity of 0.53 cubic centimeters and the 9x19 has a capacity of 0.74 cc, it may not sound like much, but it's nearly 50% more capacity. That coupled with the higher pressure limit is why even in the same length barrel, the 9x19 will always produce signifigantly more energy.
All that said I still like the Makarov round, it's pleasant to shoot and cheap to load and that alows much more practice.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

Kind of amazed this thread found it's way back to the front page...