Why no 9x18 "Micro" Maks?
- Thread starter Jim PHL
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http://www.makarov.com/others/
FEG SMC-918
When K.B.I. observed the popularity of the SMC-380 in the U.S., it decided to import the 9mm Makarov version, the SMC-918. The Hungarians had made this model (with slight modifications) since the late 1950s, with importation beginning in late 1994.
The debate continues whether the 9mm Makarov or the .380 ACP is a better defense cartridge. Neither is particularly powerful, though some of the loadings---particularly the faster hollowpoints and exotic rounds (such as MagSafe)---have caused incapacitating wounds when fired in self-defense.
The SMC-918 we tested handled well. With its clean lines and rounded corners, this pistol carries comfortably in one's pocket and is light and handy. It also boasts good instinctive pointing, with a trigger pull that is noticeably smoother and lighter than that found in the SMC-380s tested. Despite the improved trigger pull, however, the SMC-918 proved slightly less accurate than the SMC-380. Whether this is a quirk of the 9mm Makarov cartridge or an inherent situation is difficult to tell. Regardless, the test pistol had no trouble feeding any ammunition tested, including Hornady's XTP hollowpoint. Recoil with SMC-918 was sharp, similar to firing a small .38-caliber revolver. The shape of its backstrap could be at fault. By rounding off much more than that of the Walther PPK, for instance, the Hungarian designers have created a gun that is smoother in contour but a bit more difficult to fire. Compact guns are, after all, an exercise in compromise.
The SMC-918 offers the 9mm Makarov cartridge in a package that is appreciably smaller and lighter than the Soviet-designed Makarov pistol or its derivatives. The SMC-918 is, in fact, the smallest pistol currently in production for the Makarov round. The price to pay is a gun that is easier to carry and slightly more difficult to shoot. Given its mission of self-defense, though, that's a compromise many buyers will surely find acceptable.
Let me ask this question. The "bears" are the most common and plentiful and cheap ammo available.
What would happen to the 9x18 Makarov if ammo imports from Russia were suddenly banned, say by executive order as similar to the Chinese ban signed by Bush Sr?
And please don't say it can't happen because it most certainly could.
Fortunately I suppose the other European ammo (Fiocchi, Priv Partisan and S&B) makers still would be availble but would the price go up?
What would happen to the 9x18 Makarov if ammo imports from Russia were suddenly banned, say by executive order as similar to the Chinese ban signed by Bush Sr?
And please don't say it can't happen because it most certainly could.
Fortunately I suppose the other European ammo (Fiocchi, Priv Partisan and S&B) makers still would be availble but would the price go up?
harmon rabb
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price would no doubt go up, but rventually we'd get some domestically produced stuff as a result.
armarsh
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I've never tried the Hornady Critical Defense in 9x18, but XTP's feed perfectly in my CZ82's. I would expect the CD would work just as well.
Shadow 7D
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harmon rabb
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Unlike some other rounds, 9x18 ball is literally a ball (well, what's protruding from the casing is). As such, I think most 9x18 feed ramps work well with truncated bullet shapes. Never had an issue with any of mine feeding a variety of bullet shapes.
MCgunner
Member
I've got a P64 radom, about as "Micro" as 9x18 gets. I love the thing, amazingly accurate and pocketable, though all steel construction, it's kinda heavy. It's about PPK in size. That thing shoots POA and will group 3" off a rest at 25 yards. It also is a natural pointer for me. That's the reason it's in my carry rotation with a 9x19 and a .38 snub ultralite. It also does have a LITTLE more pop than .380. I don't carry my .380 much at all, just sits in a case.
I feed my P64 Silver Bear 94 grain JHP for carry. It's 100 percent and has some good pop to it.
I feed my P64 Silver Bear 94 grain JHP for carry. It's 100 percent and has some good pop to it.
MCgunner
Member
I have a bullet mold and I size 9x19 cases to 9x18. They feed perfectly. I have the recipe written down, but don't remember it. I don't load it much because 9x18 stuff is so danged cheap. But, I do have the alternative and it's nice that 9x19 can be trimmed and loaded as 9x18, don't ya think? That's one thing 9x17 will never do.
Shadow 7D
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MC gunner
the MDE is significantly smaller than the P64, but if you think the P64 hurts, well...
yeah, I'd say it's a specialist gun.
the MDE is significantly smaller than the P64, but if you think the P64 hurts, well...
yeah, I'd say it's a specialist gun.
Fastcast
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I don't believe any manufactures will be designing any new micro 9x18 pistols. I believe they pretty much have that covered with .380
With that said, I think the fears of 9x18 drying up are certainly over blown.....I'm not the slightest bit concerned about getting 9x18 in my lifetime, with internet sales. Could it cost more than current prices, sure but I don't buy firearms I have an interest in based on cheap ammo. If you want to play, you have to pay.
As far as the endless debate about lack of self defense rounds for 9x18....I personally don't worry about that either. 9x18 FMJ offers exceptional reliability, penetration and accuracy out of these pistols. If I need a pistol for SD I'm more concerned about multiple shot reliability, accuracy and penetration, than if the rounds open up an extra .10th of an inch....IMO
With that said, I think the fears of 9x18 drying up are certainly over blown.....I'm not the slightest bit concerned about getting 9x18 in my lifetime, with internet sales. Could it cost more than current prices, sure but I don't buy firearms I have an interest in based on cheap ammo. If you want to play, you have to pay.
As far as the endless debate about lack of self defense rounds for 9x18....I personally don't worry about that either. 9x18 FMJ offers exceptional reliability, penetration and accuracy out of these pistols. If I need a pistol for SD I'm more concerned about multiple shot reliability, accuracy and penetration, than if the rounds open up an extra .10th of an inch....IMO
MCgunner
Member
Before I put the Marschal grips and spring kit in it, the P64 hurt and it's over 20 ounces. I had to wear a shooting glove at the range. It's not TOO bad now, but still has more muzzle flip than my 14 ounce Kel Tec P11 shooting +P. I guess it's the blow back system on the P64. If that micro is locked breach, that might help. But, I like the P64 for its amazing accuracy from such a small pistol and I got it for under 200 bucks with two mags. I also bought 2 apare mags while the gittin' was good. P64 mags and parts are already scarce. That's one down side.
Ammo is available right down the street from me at Academy for 10 bucks a box of 50. I do have to order the Silver Bear JHP, though.
flakbait
Member
Whether a certain pistol cartridge is suitable for Self Defense is a opinion you need to decide for yourself. There is a lot of data to make an informed choice if you look.
The FBI wound experts recommend a 12 inch minimum penetration in ballistic gelatin. Its not because bad guys are greater than 12 inches in depth. Its because in the shootings they studied, bullets sometimes must past through arms to get to the vital chest structures. The human body's natural fight or flight response involves getting the hands up to protect the torso and face. The infamous FBI shootout in Miami in 1986 could have been over quickly if the determined felon Michael Platt was brought down by a 9 mm Winchester Silvertip HP bullet (old technology HP) that inflicted a fatal wound in the chest but failed to penetrate his heart by inches after passing through his arm. His killing spree ended four minutes later leaving two FBI agents dead and several others seriously maimed for life.
There are numerous anedotal accounts that NATO 9x19 hardball does not stop determined Taliban and other insurregents in Iraq and Afganistan. There is always a clamor in military circles to bring back the 45ACP for the military which is restricted to FMJ.
Carrying concealed is always a compromise between weight, conceilability, and effectiveness. Although the Makarov round is slightly more powerful than the .380 on paper, I don't think there is much good modern SD that meets FBI criteria avaliable. By meeting FBI criteria, I am focusing on terminal ballistics in bare gelatin and heavy denim and ignoring terminal ballistics after penetrating auto glass and wood (that stuff is in the realm of the police and not really self defense). The Hornady critical defense stuff doesn't cut it in the more powerful 9x19 loadings.
I guess they are ignoring 25 years of terminal ballistic testing and establishing their own criteria by making downloaded SD ammunition to sell to consumers which lack penetration and favor bullet expansion. Not to knock Hornady because I like their products in general, Speer Gold Dot HP and Winchester ranger HP bullets expand well after passing heavy clothing without needing plastic plugs. I think the plastic plug thing may be a marketing gimmick.
As you may have guessed, I think that .380 pistols are inadequate for my self defense needs and would choose a 9x19 pistol or a snub 38 revolver as a minimum. There are really better choices than the Mak pistols due to ammunition choices. I think the Mak is a nice novelty historical cartridge. There are millions of pistols made so FMJ ammo should be abundant for target shooters. I will probably pick one up eventually since they are so darn inexpensive.
The FBI wound experts recommend a 12 inch minimum penetration in ballistic gelatin. Its not because bad guys are greater than 12 inches in depth. Its because in the shootings they studied, bullets sometimes must past through arms to get to the vital chest structures. The human body's natural fight or flight response involves getting the hands up to protect the torso and face. The infamous FBI shootout in Miami in 1986 could have been over quickly if the determined felon Michael Platt was brought down by a 9 mm Winchester Silvertip HP bullet (old technology HP) that inflicted a fatal wound in the chest but failed to penetrate his heart by inches after passing through his arm. His killing spree ended four minutes later leaving two FBI agents dead and several others seriously maimed for life.
There are numerous anedotal accounts that NATO 9x19 hardball does not stop determined Taliban and other insurregents in Iraq and Afganistan. There is always a clamor in military circles to bring back the 45ACP for the military which is restricted to FMJ.
Carrying concealed is always a compromise between weight, conceilability, and effectiveness. Although the Makarov round is slightly more powerful than the .380 on paper, I don't think there is much good modern SD that meets FBI criteria avaliable. By meeting FBI criteria, I am focusing on terminal ballistics in bare gelatin and heavy denim and ignoring terminal ballistics after penetrating auto glass and wood (that stuff is in the realm of the police and not really self defense). The Hornady critical defense stuff doesn't cut it in the more powerful 9x19 loadings.
I guess they are ignoring 25 years of terminal ballistic testing and establishing their own criteria by making downloaded SD ammunition to sell to consumers which lack penetration and favor bullet expansion. Not to knock Hornady because I like their products in general, Speer Gold Dot HP and Winchester ranger HP bullets expand well after passing heavy clothing without needing plastic plugs. I think the plastic plug thing may be a marketing gimmick.
As you may have guessed, I think that .380 pistols are inadequate for my self defense needs and would choose a 9x19 pistol or a snub 38 revolver as a minimum. There are really better choices than the Mak pistols due to ammunition choices. I think the Mak is a nice novelty historical cartridge. There are millions of pistols made so FMJ ammo should be abundant for target shooters. I will probably pick one up eventually since they are so darn inexpensive.
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Fastcast
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Flakbait, your argument seems full of contradictions to me.
Seeing as that bullet stopped inches from Mr Platt's heart, wouldn't it be safe to say that simple FMJ would have stopped him much sooner than 4 minutes? That is not an endorsement of FMJ over HP, just pointing out that with (handguns) shot placement and adequate penetration is what stops the fight in determined attackers, not HP or FMJ. If it expands, penetrates deep enough and hits something vital, sure, that's as good as it gets!
You dismiss the CZ 82 but endorse a 38sp. I'll assume you mean J-frame which most who conceal carry use. The CZ82 and J-frame have practically the same dimensional specs and ballistics.
The CZ has 13 rounds of 9x18 and have stock triggers that a J-frame can't even remotely match. Way better ergos, better/quicker follow up accuracy, and 8 additional rounds left after your J-frame needs a reload.
The CZ is in a different league as far as defense and fighting handguns go. Anyone endorsing a J-frame while dismissing the 9x18 CZ82 pistol for defense, is not thinking clearly.
What military still uses a 38sp? The Czech's are still seen today in Afghanistan carrying the 82 pistol.
Seeing as that bullet stopped inches from Mr Platt's heart, wouldn't it be safe to say that simple FMJ would have stopped him much sooner than 4 minutes? That is not an endorsement of FMJ over HP, just pointing out that with (handguns) shot placement and adequate penetration is what stops the fight in determined attackers, not HP or FMJ. If it expands, penetrates deep enough and hits something vital, sure, that's as good as it gets!
You dismiss the CZ 82 but endorse a 38sp. I'll assume you mean J-frame which most who conceal carry use. The CZ82 and J-frame have practically the same dimensional specs and ballistics.
The CZ has 13 rounds of 9x18 and have stock triggers that a J-frame can't even remotely match. Way better ergos, better/quicker follow up accuracy, and 8 additional rounds left after your J-frame needs a reload.
The CZ is in a different league as far as defense and fighting handguns go. Anyone endorsing a J-frame while dismissing the 9x18 CZ82 pistol for defense, is not thinking clearly.
What military still uses a 38sp? The Czech's are still seen today in Afghanistan carrying the 82 pistol.
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Shadow 7D
Member
Flak BAIT
there are numerous issues with what you have posted, if you want a flame war, go find http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=612982&page=11
So, you have A LOT of reading to do
BTW, most people would attribute the failures in Miami to bad TACTICS... and going up against guys better armed than you... well this isn't the thread about that
Since you are railing against any caliber smaller than the Atomic Bomb (marshall and sanow fan?)
Check out http://mouseguns.com/
tactics for personal defense ARE MUCH different than police tactics
with small guns, it's about you
and you have to decide what's 'enough' gun
So to summarize, you add nothing to this thread and distract from the discussion
I personally find that 9 Mak (which is about a powerful you can go in blowback before you get Hi-Point looking slides) TOO much for Pocket mouses, I actually thing .380 is borderline in shootablity.
there are numerous issues with what you have posted, if you want a flame war, go find http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=612982&page=11
So, you have A LOT of reading to do
BTW, most people would attribute the failures in Miami to bad TACTICS... and going up against guys better armed than you... well this isn't the thread about that
Since you are railing against any caliber smaller than the Atomic Bomb (marshall and sanow fan?)
Check out http://mouseguns.com/
tactics for personal defense ARE MUCH different than police tactics
with small guns, it's about you
and you have to decide what's 'enough' gun
So to summarize, you add nothing to this thread and distract from the discussion
I personally find that 9 Mak (which is about a powerful you can go in blowback before you get Hi-Point looking slides) TOO much for Pocket mouses, I actually thing .380 is borderline in shootablity.
MCgunner
Member
The FBI shootout in Miami has little bearing on MY choices of ammo. Plus, I think Fackler is a hack. I don't figure getting shot with a 9x18 is going to tickle. I'm not willing to stand there, hands in front of me, and get shot with one. Are you?
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=360&name=Polish+Radom+P-64+9x18+Pistol
Weight 21.9 oz with empty magazine
Length 6.3 Inches
Height 4.6 Inches
Thickness 1.0 Inches (with flat-panel grips)
Barrel Length 3.33 Inches
It is pretty close to the size of a Ruger LC9.
Weight 21.9 oz with empty magazine
Length 6.3 Inches
Height 4.6 Inches
Thickness 1.0 Inches (with flat-panel grips)
Barrel Length 3.33 Inches
It is pretty close to the size of a Ruger LC9.
Jim PHL
Member
Hello all. I am the original post-er. It was not my intention to re-start the caliber war of 9x18 vs. .380 or any other caliber. This has been done and continues to be done in many other threads. My question was intended more towards an engineering angle and a marketing angle.
Whether the 9x18 is an appropriate SD caliber at all, I think few would argue the fact that it is better than a .380 in that regard. That being said:
1- Is it mechanically possible for Kel-Tec to build a KT-Mak? or Ruger an LCommieP?
2- If it was possible from an engineering standpoint, why NOT make it from a marketing standpoint?
Whether the 9x18 is an appropriate SD caliber at all, I think few would argue the fact that it is better than a .380 in that regard. That being said:
1- Is it mechanically possible for Kel-Tec to build a KT-Mak? or Ruger an LCommieP?
2- If it was possible from an engineering standpoint, why NOT make it from a marketing standpoint?
MCgunner
Member
I'm sure it's possible since the 9x18 is mild enough for blowback designs and the P3AT and its clones are locked breach designs. Why not?
If Kel Tec or Ruger built it, I MIGHT bite, not sure. I think all the dissing of the 9x18 is to address the marketing of the gun, availability of the latest and greatest magic bullet self defense loads, you know, the kind that kills the guy before he hits the ground hollow points that can penetrate 50 inches and expand to 90 caliber like is available for the .380....</sarcasm> But, if the GUN were built and it sold, I'm betting the magic ammo would follow. However, I rather like my P11 in 9x19 for not much more weight/size. I got the Radom because it was cheap and I just wanted it and it turned out to be a heckuva accurate and reliable pocket pistol. I doubt a P3AT in the caliber could compete with it in accuracy and know the .380 version can't.
Anyway, I'm guessing it might have some mild success if someone made the leap. Some might buy it just because the ammo is hotter and cheaper than .380. I'm not much of a prognosticator of the handgun market, though. I predicted the Taurus Judge would be a big flop.
And, BTW, what company made a .410 buckshot round designed for pistols before the Judge? Heck, they're even coming out with .22 mag magic loads for my Black Widow of late. I get my hands on some of those, hell, why bother with 9x18? I'll have a 10 ounce gun half the size that will kill a man dead before the bullet hits him! That's the hype, anyway. Prince Yamato
Member
I post everytime I see these threads. I would buy a 9x18 pocket pistol in a second. It's a great round. I'm sure there's demand for a pocket pistol in that caliber. What is needed is for someone to lay pressure on a company like seecamp or mpa. The round is readily available and plenty powerful for defense.
Gordon
Member
The RK 61 is as small as I'd want to shoot ! These were Hungarian secret police pistols and quite rare. Think a 3/4 scale PA63. I gave my PA 63 to my son after finding a non imported RK59 for $300 about 10 years ago
http://www.hungariae.com/FegR61.htm
http://www.hungariae.com/FegR61.htm
The RK 61 and 59 are the military versions of the SMC-918 I posted on above.
There's demand for all sorts of things, the question is how much demand vs how much profit. One of the elements of 9x18 guns, whether Makarov's, FEG's, Polish PA's and CZ82 et al... is that they were almost all surplus and cheap (at least at first), even then demand for 9x18 pistols was limited.
I'm afraid that if a company did try to make a pint size makarov gun that its eventual cost would be high and that would sap demand.
10mm fans have been clamoring for more modern, less expensive options (Glock and EAA are the only in production non 1911's) (and the 1911 10mm's are usually very big $) from everyone and no company has taken up that request.
Probably lack of profit margin due to a supposed lack of demand. If $ was to be made it would have already been made. I doubt the 9x18 would garner any interest from the serious gunmakers and so far only the MDE seems to be a new offering and not in the US apparently. Also the 380 versions of the MDE that are offered are heavy and expensive compared to other pocket 380's
There's demand for all sorts of things, the question is how much demand vs how much profit. One of the elements of 9x18 guns, whether Makarov's, FEG's, Polish PA's and CZ82 et al... is that they were almost all surplus and cheap (at least at first), even then demand for 9x18 pistols was limited.
I'm afraid that if a company did try to make a pint size makarov gun that its eventual cost would be high and that would sap demand.
10mm fans have been clamoring for more modern, less expensive options (Glock and EAA are the only in production non 1911's) (and the 1911 10mm's are usually very big $) from everyone and no company has taken up that request.
Probably lack of profit margin due to a supposed lack of demand. If $ was to be made it would have already been made. I doubt the 9x18 would garner any interest from the serious gunmakers and so far only the MDE seems to be a new offering and not in the US apparently. Also the 380 versions of the MDE that are offered are heavy and expensive compared to other pocket 380's
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flakbait
Member
You only get one chance to make an big impression in a gunfight.
1. Bring a gun. That makes what you carry, when you carry, and how you carry the most important question.
2. Carry the most effective ammunition available that may get the job done. By effective, I want bullets that expand to make big wound channels in bad guys AND penetration that is deep enough to hit vital organs.
3. Handguns aren't even close to death rays and there are numerous accounts of determined assailants fighting after being shot with large and small caliber weapons. I used the Miami shootout as an example of how dangerous an felon bent on killing can be even after being hit by a bullet. Afterwards, Law Enforcement/FBI at least tried to create standards to test new ammunition and gun choices . The conclusions they made are a whole other can of worms but at least the process of testing and refinement have given us much better ammunition than 25 years ago.
Everything is a compromise of weight and effectiveness. In my opinion, there are better choices than the Mak line of guns for concealed carry and this opinion is formulated on the better ammunition choices available in modern handgun designs.
I don't know why the ammo companies haven't jumped on the MaK bandwagon but clearly the free market and the lack of perceived demand may explain it. They make a whole lot more money selling .380 ammo! Gun makers likewise have embraced the 9x19 and .380 in their new line of pocket/small guns.
I don't give a lot of weight to what military grunts are forced to carry since they are forced to use FMJ ammo when everyone knows that expanding ammunition JHP is clearly more effective. I do take note of their universal low opinion of ball ammo from 9mm type caliber handguns.
1. Bring a gun. That makes what you carry, when you carry, and how you carry the most important question.
2. Carry the most effective ammunition available that may get the job done. By effective, I want bullets that expand to make big wound channels in bad guys AND penetration that is deep enough to hit vital organs.
3. Handguns aren't even close to death rays and there are numerous accounts of determined assailants fighting after being shot with large and small caliber weapons. I used the Miami shootout as an example of how dangerous an felon bent on killing can be even after being hit by a bullet. Afterwards, Law Enforcement/FBI at least tried to create standards to test new ammunition and gun choices . The conclusions they made are a whole other can of worms but at least the process of testing and refinement have given us much better ammunition than 25 years ago.
Everything is a compromise of weight and effectiveness. In my opinion, there are better choices than the Mak line of guns for concealed carry and this opinion is formulated on the better ammunition choices available in modern handgun designs.
I don't know why the ammo companies haven't jumped on the MaK bandwagon but clearly the free market and the lack of perceived demand may explain it. They make a whole lot more money selling .380 ammo! Gun makers likewise have embraced the 9x19 and .380 in their new line of pocket/small guns.
I don't give a lot of weight to what military grunts are forced to carry since they are forced to use FMJ ammo when everyone knows that expanding ammunition JHP is clearly more effective. I do take note of their universal low opinion of ball ammo from 9mm type caliber handguns.
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