Why not duplicate .45ACP in the .357?

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20nickels

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I see lots of .45 vs .357 threads. Usually this is in the context of auto vs. revolver and low pressure vs high pressure, but this thread is revo only. The 45 is considered not as powerfull but generally more pleasant to shoot. I also read occasionally of somebody wanting to put .45 into medium frame revolvers.
My question is simple; Heavy bullets exist (200-230gr) for the .357, why not handload them to a lower pressure and duplicate the time honored .45 ACP manstoppers? Case capacity looks similair in volume, but it is tough to tell by just eyeballing. The 230 grainers would probably need .38 cases to clear the cylinder.
This has been on my mind for some time now and I get the feeling I'm missing the boat somewhere because there truly is nothing new under the sun. The quick follow up shot benefits may outweigh the power of the magnum. Just because you have a high pressure ceiling doesn't mean you have to spend all of yer time hanging off of it, besides these long bullets may tumble in the target. Waddaya think? :scrutiny:
 
A 200 grain .357" bullet has a very high Sectional Density.
As a consequence, over-penetration would be all out of proportion to the same bullet weight in a .45.

Years ago, there was a 200 grain .38 Special LRN police load.
It proved to be less effective then lighter bullets due to it zipping right on through the target at very low velocity.

Loaded hotter in a .357 Mag, it would get even worse, and you would still have the excess recoil & blast of a .357 to contend with as compared to a .45 ACP.

rcmodel
 
Ah, that's the catch. I guess I did not look at it as putting two holes in the target as a bad thing. I guess a maddly expanding 160 grainer is the way to go afterall in 357 if you want to keep pressure down.
 
The .357 magnum revolvers already have a low pressure cartridge to use. It's called the .38 spl.
 
I always liked the concept of a .45acp moving faster, this seems to have been accomplished with the .45super. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on as much, especially with 10mm people.

A slow heavy .357mag makes less sense as it is not as wide of a diameter. The British military used to use 178 to 200 grain loads in the even weaker .38S&W.
 
One of teh things people like about the .45acp is that it has a wide diameter, so even if it doesn't expand, its a pretty wide bullet pushing through the body. A .357, is always going to be missing that 1/10th of an inch in daimeter.

I think you are only seeing weight here. Size matters (to those who prefer .45. I personally am a .357 man).

oh and one more thing:
I guess a maddly expanding 160 grainer is the way to go afterall in 357 if you want to keep pressure down.
Click to expand...

Umm...160gr in a .357mag is not "maddly expanding." Hell, some people think it's silly that I carry 158gr. .357s because of penetration issues. The "maddly expanding" rounds are usually in the 125 gr. range.
 
Even the .41 Magnum in its original police loading of 210 grs @ 950 fps made for a less than satisfactory .45 ACP substitute, I don't see what a skinnier slug would bring to the table.
 
My question is simple; Heavy bullets exist (200-230gr) for the .357, why not handload them to a lower pressure and duplicate the time honored .45 ACP manstoppers?
Click to expand...
Another part of the problem is that the "time honored .45 manstopper" thing is a myth. Ball ammo is ball ammo, and the old .45 230-gr. ball slugs had a reputation that somewhat exceeded reality. Today, a good .45 manstopper would be a zippy 185-gr. JHP in +P+. I had a friend who, during the second day after MacArthur returned to the Philippines, was wading ashore when a small Moro fellow came running out of the jungle with an upraised machete. My friend was alone and he got his .45 Colt out of his holster just in time to shoot the man in the chest. It didn't slow the guy down at all and there was no time for a second shot, so he brought old slabsides down on the man's head while jumping clear of the machete. This time the guy went down, but even then he lived to recover from his wound. My friend said he'd never trust his life to a .45 pistol again, which I thought was the wrong attitude to take. There were many times a .45 did work, but it was little better than .38 ball ammo.

A good .38 Spc. loaded with a hot hollowpoint generally does better than the heavy .45. You're not going to get much expansion out of a .45 JHP, but if you can increase the energy and keep it from exiting the body, you can generally do the job.
 
Okay I've gone cross-eyed. I've read of 200 gr Hornaday XTP .45's taking deer and not expanding at all into the far shoulder.
I am learning more than I care to admit in this rehash of the classic "slow & heavy vs light & fast". I'm keeping a close eye on Don Lu's bullet design thresd.
 
You could also use hot loaded .44 specials out of a revolver. This basically duplicates the better .45 ACP loads. This is my prefered choice in a revolver.
 
125 JHP at 1400+ fps. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is one of the best handgun rounds for self defense extant. Yeah, some find it rough to shoot. It ain't easy on guns and it is terrible in 12 ounce scandium pocket guns. But, if what you want is to stop an attacker, learn to shoot it in a proper medium weight gun and you'll be about as well armed as you can get with a handgun. A 3" SP101 with these loads is a formidable weapon that is very concealable and easy to shoot, probably why so many people love the gun.
 
I'm still scratching my head about the statement that 357 is more powerful than 45acp. I guess it depends on how you define power, but anybody who says that has a definition different from mine.
 
1 .45ACP is way light for deer hunting

2 .357 is fine for HOGS, much less deer hunting

Yes, at 785 ft lbs for my 180 grain load firing out of my Blackhawk at 1400 fps, I'd call it more powerful than a 200 grain pill at 900 to 1100 fps, for sure, any day of the week and twice on sunday. Not hard for me to figure THAT one out. :rolleyes: If you compare .45ACP well to .357, you probably think the 10mm is weak just because it's .05" smaller in diameter.
 
If I were shooting at deer with 45acp I'd load 250gr at 1050-1100 (I shoot the caliber in revolvers). IMHO fpe means squat in handguns, especially for PD rounds. My acp defense round is 200gr at 900 from a 2" barrel. Power factor 180, and it makes a big hole. I don't know of a 357 round that'll do that.
 
In .45, I shoot a 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps, COLT, not ACP. You may not think energy matters, but penetration does. The SD of a 180 grain .357 bullet assures more penetration than the sub 300 grain .45 at lower velocities. The diameter of the bullet doesn't make for squat except as it relates to sectional density. Quick check of SDs for the 180 .357 in my Speer manual gives .202, .183 is given for a 260 grain .45, advantage .357 for penetration. In hunting, penetration matters and SD affects penetration. Of course, in my .45 autoloader, I shoot even SHORTER, lower SD bullets in 200 grains, quite deficient for game like big hogs, but the .357 gets'er done. I will admit that if you replace ACP with COLT, you are superior. But, apples and oranges in the ACP vs .357 debate. I've loaded up to a 340 grain flat nose in my .45 colts. Too much leading at any velocity, but the big case will handle it.

And power factor is for games, not real ballistics. I know a 125 grain .357 at 1400 fps is going to expand, there is no question. And, if you've ever shot a hog with a 140 at 1400 (my handload) in a hog trap, you'd be amazed at the fist sized exit wound, quite impressive. I've shot 'em with the .45 and it killed 'em, as did my .38. Hell, I carry a 9mm, not some large .45. My .45 doesn't fit my pocket and I don't do IWB because I wanna be macho and carry a .45. I am under no delusion that the .45 is anything more than just another service caliber rounds. I'm still going to have to 1) have a gun and 2) place a shot in the vitals. I carry a 9mm 115 grain +P at 1262 fps and I know it'll stop an attack if I do my part and it rides in my pocket 24/7. My .45 is in the safe where it stays except for matches, qualifications, and occasional trips to the big city when I can carry IWB. I can't carry IWB daily, don't have that sort of job or life style or dress and it's over 100 degrees a lot down here, at least in heat index. I don't live in friggin' Fairbanks.
 
When I think stopping power, I look back to that NYPD officer making a one-shot kill on a polar bear with his 38spl service revolver. If I ever feel polar bear threatened, guess I'll have to load up some 158gr round nose.
 
Not so much what you put as where you put it. :D

Who is it, Cosmoline? Some Alaska type likes to say that an old salt up there recommends the .357 on big bear because you're more apt to hit the head with it and might even get a second shot. :D When you think about it, on big browns that laugh at .44s, it makes sense. LOL. A hot, heavy .357 load ain't got the horsepower of a .44, but hey, the .44 ain't got enough and the .357 is easier to shoot well and often.
 
Pinky -

What NYPD officer shot a Polar Bear with a 38 spl? Was it escaped from a zoo? Do you have a link?
 
What NYPD officer shot a Polar Bear with a 38 spl? Was it escaped from a zoo? Do you have a link?
Click to expand...

they have been poached with 22lr many times. If you poke a hole in the right place it can kill ya.
 
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