.38/.357 ballistics, blast and hollow point oh my

[FullEffect1911]

after spending a few hours today trying to find out a few things about .38/.357 caliber ballistics and hollow point stopping power, I've come to a theory that I would like to discuss with my fellow high roaders.

In General:

"the most effective" .38+p rounds are "usually" shot out of snub nose revolvers, which are not known for their velocity. So this leads to the top two types or bullet designs. The short barrel gold dot with its rather large for the caliber hollow point, and the soft lead swc-hp affectionately referred to as the fbi round.

"the most effective" .357 mag rounds are "usually" capable of a comparably high velocity and the concern is usually so called over penetration. The standard load seems to be the 125 grain barn burner going somewhere in the neighborhood of 1450 fps. A round at this speed doesn't need such a large hollow point as the velocity will expand the bullet.

Now I am the type of person to be concerned with the blast that is associated with the 125 grain magnums and I usually tend towards the heavy for the caliber weights (158 in this case... not 180 grain). However at the same time, I feel like I am robbing myself of performance using a .38 +p in a .357 magnum revolver.

Now, of course it can be debated that the .38 is fine for self defense etc, but that isn't what I want to discuss.

One of my burning questions is a comparison of the blasts in the magnum round? I have heard that 158 grain rounds have less blast then the 125 grain loadings. Assuming they were both loaded to the same pressures, would a 158 grain magnum really have less blast? Or is this just a case that the 158 grain loadings are just loaded to a lesser performance?

The other question I would like to pose is why has the 125 grain magnum loadings become so much more popular then it's 158 grain competitor? Do the 158 grain bullets not expand as reliably due to the comparatively small potential for a hollow point cavity?

It can be theorized that the .38/.357 needs its velocity to expand because it's a smaller diameter to start. The .40 and .45 have comparatively large "openings" in them (is that what a meplat is?) to start thereby in theory not requiring the magnums speed to preform well. Could there be much truth in this?

And lastly since blast is a concern for me, and I like launching heavy projectiles, is there a good performing .357 magnum round in the 158 grain area that has less blast then the famous 125 grain loads?

If anyone has a .357 mag decibel chart for various loadings that would be fantastic... but I fear one doesn't exist.

Anyway, I know it's a bit of a ramble but I am curious of the other thoughts I may receive on the subject.

 

[wuchak]

The .357 was originally conceived as a hunting cartridge and the 158gr bullet was the original weight. I think the 158 might tend to overpenetrate vs the 125's especially out of a gun with a 4" or longer barrel. Out of a snubby where velocity is reduced I personally would rather have the extra penetration of the 158's. I also find the recoil of the 158's to be more push than snap like the 125's. The reduced blast from the 158's is due to them having less powder in the case. The max load of Win231 with a 125gr bullet is 22grains, with a 158gr bullet it is 16.7. The heavier bullet takes up more room in the case leaving less room for power and the heavier projectile stays in the barrel a little longer allowing the load to reach max pressure with less powder. BTW the velocities for those loads out of a 10" test barrel are 1966fps and 1591fps second for 1072 and 887 foot pound of energy respectively. Rule of thumb for .357 is a 35fps loss in velocity for every inch of barrel removed, although I suspect the drop in velocity once the barrel length goes below 4" is more like 50fps.


Great article on the .357 by Skeeter Skelton written in 1988 http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=30

Quote from above,"If i had to choose just one gun to side me for the rest of my life, be it handgun, rifle or shotgun, I would select a .357 Magnum revolver."

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I find the blast from a .357 out of a snubbie to be quite "offensive" and difficult to control for follow up shots. Having said that if I ever find myself in a position where I had to shoot some real big dude I think I'd be better off with the blast of a well loaded .357. It's really a toss up - I shoot my .38's better than the .357's that I used to own.

 

[Spyvie]

I don't know much about ballistics, but I like Blazer aluminum case 158GR JHP as range ammo in both my 3” SP101 and my 6” GP100. The recoil is kinda light, maybe just a little sharper than .38 Spec but not bad at all. The price is about the same as most .38 non Blazer stuff and I don't have to worry about fouling and cleaning my chambers.

Defensive ammo in a snubbie? I'd say go with one of the reduced recoil .357 loads set up just for that purpose. I like the 125GR Golden Sabers.

 

[Funderb]

here's a good pointer
don't shoot without earplugs.
.357 will make you deaf.

 

[Steve C]

If you have to fire in self defense you won't even notice the blast as your attention will be on other more important things like your attacker and staying alive. Afterwards you may notice a ringing in your ears.

Muzzle blast is a range and practice issue. Wear ear protection to avoid hearing damage. Stand next to someone firing a -06 or other high power rifle at the range, wearing ear plugs of course. The muzzle blast will lay the grass down for 10 yards. Now ask any one who has shot a dear or elk in the woods usually without any hearing protection, if they even remembers the muzzle blast. I'll wager most will tell you they don't even remember the sound of the shot being very loud.

 

[Moonclip]

I avoid .357mag revolvers especially in snub format for home defense in my small home exactly because of excessive flash and blast. I could use lower pressure loads or .38spl but in that case I just use one of my guns chambered in .38spl.

 

[jfh]

For 357 SD cartridges that help avoid the blast issues associated with the 125-gr. loads and the 'lower' performance of 158-gr. loads consider Gold Dot Short Barrel 357 magnum rounds with 135-gr. and 147-gr. bullets.

The GDSB 135-gr 357 magnum PD round runs an honest 970-990 fps from my 2" barrel j-frames, and it has no particular flash issues in twilight. Yes, there is a flash and blast, but nothing like 'traditional' 357 loads.

Personally, I feel confident using the 38+P 135-gr. PD round in my lightweight carry gun. Shot from a 2" barrel, they run about 880-900 fps. Shot from a 4" 686, they run just over 1000 fps and are an absolute pussycat to shoot as well.

Jim H.

 

[wuchak]

C'mon guys. The blast isn't "that" bad. Actually I think it's a deterrent if the perp has friends. There are many who use a 12 gauge for hd and I don't hear anyone worrying about how loud it will be inside, but I hear that concern about the .357 all the time.

One simple answer is to put pair of electronic ears next to the nightstand gun. You need to use good ones though since the cheap ones are mono and have non direction microphones so you cannot easily tell which direction a sound is coming from.

 

[FullEffect1911]

believe me, i had/have no intention of this being a .38 vs .357 debate... lots on that one already . And I'm certainly not saying one shouldn't use the "loud" magnums, they work great. This is just more for knowledge on the subject than anything else.

The GDSB 135-gr 357 magnum PD round runs an honest 970-990 fps from my 2" barrel j-frames, and it has no particular flash issues in twilight. Yes, there is a flash and blast, but nothing like 'traditional' 357 loads.

I'm quite glad to hear that, this is one of the loadings I am quite interested in.

here's a good pointer
don't shoot without earplugs.
.357 will make you deaf.

Always good advice, but one wouldn't likely have the opportunity in a defensive shoot.

The reduced blast from the 158's is due to them having less powder in the case.

I hadn't considered this, and it makes sense in a way, there is less "potential energy" in a case with less powder.

Let's see if i remember my noise control class.... Pressure waves have a LOT to do with the sound we hear (length of the wave helps determine frequency), so the intensity of the pressure wave would increase the decibel level. Now I have two questions that come out of this one.

Are 158 grain .357 magnum rounds actually loaded to a lower pressure?

Given the same pressure is a 158 less intense compared to a 125?

This is something I've been curious about for some time actually.


Now for the non scientific questions...

Has anyone compared the blast and recoil of buffalo bore's various "tactical" .357 magnums and speer's 135 grain SB-GD magnum?

 

[Moonclip]

The 12ga doesn't have a 2 3/4"barrel though and a cylinder gap. Flash seems lower too with many loads in a 12ga.

 

[WildeKurt]

+1 for 158

I've found most commercial 110 and 125 grain magnum ammo to be unpleasant to fire from my 357. I do load 158 grain magnum stuff myself and find it quite acceptable.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

Most of the 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum ammunitions were developed for law enforcement use and are loaded with flash suppressant coated powders as are the new PD loads. Most 158 grain .357 Magnum ammunition is loaded for hunting and the powders are not flash suppressed. Winchester 158 grain LSWC full-power ammunition gives an 18 inch diameter muzzle flash about three feet long out of my three-inch S&W M13. It's almost as bright as the flash from a .30-30 Win in a 10-inch Contender but orange instead of white.

ECS

 

[joneb]

For handgun home defense I load my Ruger sec. six 2.75" with 148gr BBWC over 4.5gr of Bullseye w/Fed.100 primers, it's very accurate and sub-sonic. If I need to use this firearm in a confined area in low light for self defense I choose not to be blind and deaf after my first shot.

 

[rdrancher]

Here's a good link that may help you out.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#tactical357

Scroll up the page for more .357 and .38 special info.

rd

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Any of those rounds delivered to the right spot is not going to do your opponent any good. Go with the one that YOU SHOOT BEST.

 

[Snapping Twig]

"Are 158 grain .357 magnum rounds actually loaded to a lower pressure?

Given the same pressure is a 158 less intense compared to a 125?"

Figure that a heavier projectile - 158 vs 125 - you would use less powder for an equal pressure. Physics at its most basic.

The heavier projectile will move slower overall, but the pressure will remain constant. This is what reloading formulas are about, keeping the pressures constant. Lighter projectiles will move faster, heavier ones slower, powder volume changes to accommodate different projectile weights.